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Liz Stride: Why No Loud Cry?

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  • Liz Stride: Why No Loud Cry?

    I know that we are all over the place with Liz threads but I thought maybe we could simply focus on this one issue (yeah, right).

    It has always puzzled me why Liz "screamed three times but not very loudly", according to Schwartz. This doesn't strike me as the expected reaction from someone who is in fear of their life.

    I think it is a fairly safe assumption that Liz had heard of the murders of Tabram, Annie and Polly and that a murderer named Jack the Ripper was roaming the streets of Whitechapel. She is alone, late at night when she is accosted by a man (possibly drunk) who we are told is grabbing at her and throwing her to the ground. Would not her first reaction be to think that she herself might now be face to face with Jack himself? She sees Schwartz and the Pipeman who might be able to save her. You would expect her to scream bloody murder (no pun intended) and appeal desperately to Schwartz and the Pipeman to save her. But her reaction is three not so loud screams as though she was more startled than anything else. What can explain this?

    1. They were pulling in opposite directions and one of them unexpectedly let go so that it was more in the nature of an unintended accident.

    2. Liz was clueless and did not realize that she was in serious danger.

    3. Liz knew her attacker, perhaps Kidney or another lover and thought at worst only an argument would ensue. (I'll give credit to my friend, Fisherman for this one).

    4. Schwartz did not speak English and could not understand anything that was being said. Perhaps the BS man said something to Liz that reassured her that she was not in danger such as "next time, you'll get much worse" or "don't let me catch you out here again." (I'll give credit to my friend, Tom Wescott for this one).

    If it is number four, then I can see the BS man simply walking away after this although it is possible that his actions did not match his words and that he went on to kill Liz.

    Any thoughts?

    c.d.

  • #2
    Hi CD,

    We can't say that Liz didn't cry loudly following the fleeing of Schwartz. We can only say that no one heard her cry. Keep in mind that, according to Schwartz, BS Man was yelling Jewish epithets on a Jewish street, yet nobody heard him.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Tom,

      Yes, but the question remains, at what point did Liz start to realize that she was in danger? Why not appeal for help to Schwartz and the Pipe Man when she had the opportunity to do so?

      c.d.

      Comment


      • #4
        I would imagine that being manhandled to the ground was perfectly ordinary for late 19th Century prostitutes in the East End. It certainly would not of itself signify mortal danger, would it?

        Comment


        • #5
          She may not have realized she was in mortal danger until the knife had already done its work.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott

          Comment


          • #6
            But why would she not consider herself in danger, Tom?

            c.d.

            Comment


            • #7
              Earlier today on a related thread, I replied to Caz who asked why Liz was holding the cachous. Here's my thoughts on that and it should also answer why I think it's possible that Liz and at least some of the other women did not realize they were in mortal danger:

              Hi Caz. I believe the Ripper would use robbery as a ruse to assure the woman's silence once he got her alone. He held them at knife point and assured them that if they cooperated and remained silent they wouldn't get hurt. Pretty common and effective ruse. The girls were told to empty their pockets. This, I believe, is why Chapman's belongings were at her feet - she was standing when they fell. If I'm right, this would also explain the thimble next to Eddowes' hand and the cachous in Stride's hand - they were emptying their pockets and the Ripper taking their money. He subsequently killed them.

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • #8
                Who?

                Who is this Tom Wescott guy anyway? I seem to recall the name from somewhere.
                SPE

                Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think we were in a cabal together once, Stewart. We share a similar interest in suppressing information and manipulating the facts as I recall.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Right

                    Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                    I think we were in a cabal together once, Stewart. We share a similar interest in suppressing information and manipulating the facts as I recall.
                    Yours truly,
                    Tom Wescott
                    Ah right, now I remember. Getting old don't you know...
                    SPE

                    Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, and you proved absolutely horrible at suppressing evidence. How many books are you up to now? If I didn't know better, I'd say you had a passion for uncovering and sharing information, but then I don't wish to offend you.

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A newbie, like you Stewart.

                        Tom- Chapmans items were placed. Eddowes thimble was laying off her hand, it would seem she was wearing it, and her items were upon her.

                        Monty
                        Monty

                        https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                        Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                        http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No Offence

                          Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                          Yes, and you proved absolutely horrible at suppressing evidence. How many books are you up to now? If I didn't know better, I'd say you had a passion for uncovering and sharing information, but then I don't wish to offend you.
                          Yours truly,
                          Tom Wescott
                          No offence (offense for US readers) taken Tom. However, I'm not sure what to do about all this unpublished information I have. I think that I shall take a leaf out of Macnaghten's book and burn it all.
                          SPE

                          Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Monty,

                            Hello old friend. Did I not say Eddowes' thimble was next to her hand? Makes more sense to me that she was holding it than wearing it. Chapman's belongings MAY have been arranged, but they first must have been laid on the ground or they fell there. From the evidence, it seems to me more likely that her rings were wrenched from her fingers while she was alive and conscious as opposed to after. Not only were her rings missing, but also her medicine and lotion, which may have been taken away by her killer.

                            Yours truly,

                            Tom Wescott

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Newbie

                              Originally posted by Monty View Post
                              A newbie, like you Stewart.
                              Monty
                              That's right, a newbie. By the way what were you doing in August 1967 when I photographed the Ripper murder sites?
                              SPE

                              Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                              Comment

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