Liz Stride: Why No Loud Cry?

[Fisherman]

In fact, Tom, you don´t know how many escape routes I think he had...

The best!
Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Fisherman,
Was he Houdini maybe?

[Sam Flynn]

Was he Houdini maybe?

Nah, Nats - more like Houdunnit.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

You're the oracle when it comes to the Stride murder.

Do you know anything about this story from The Times, 1st October 1888?

"Conflicting statements are made as to the way in which the body was found, but according to one account a lad first made the discovery and gave information to a man named Costa, who proceeded to the spot, where almost immediately afterwards a constable arrived. The body was then removed to No. 40, Berner-street, which is very near to the now notorious Hanbury-street. These premises are occupied by the International Workmen's Club."

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:

"Nah, Nats - more like Houdunnit."

Should take care of that one; thanks, Sam!

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Simon,

Yes, I actually wrote a bit about this fellow in one of my Ripper Notes essays. I'm embarrassed to say I'd now have to refer back to it to answer your question fully. However, a few newspapers referred to a Joseph Koster (Costa to the Times) who found the body, alerted club members, and made off to find a policeman. This is a muddled reference to Diemschutz (assumed by someone to have been a coster). I'm at work without my references so that's the best I can do for now.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Many thanks. That'll do nicely for the time being.

Welcome back, by the way. Whereya bin?

Regards,

Simon

[Cap'n Jack]

Simon, Tom was fired out of that black hole machine in time for the end of the world, but he still won't admit that the witness he discusses is actually Nathan Shine.

[Tom_Wescott]

Simon,

Don't let AP confuse you with the Shine business. No one of that name had anything to do with it. The body was found by Diemschutz. Period. The 'young boy' element came about either because of the youthful Kozebrodski, who was glued to Diemschutz's hip, or the even younger boy (whose name I can't remember right now! Ahhhh!) who lived down the street but was early at the scene and was not shy at all in talking to reporters.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom and AP,

In the interests of British fair play I've now read the Koster article and 1912 Nathanial Shine story.

A question—

Can we place Nathanial Shine in Berner Street on September 30th 1888?

Seconds out!

Regards,

Simon

[Dan Norder]

actually Nathan Shine.

Not this again. Someone coming up with a story about a witness sighting a century after the fact doesn't mean it's actually real. Lots of families would have had stories placing their ancestors in the thick of things, and there's no reason to assume any of the ones that came about so late after the fact are true unless they are backed up by reliable evidence... and in this one there isn't, as the story doesn't match the known details given by witnesses interviewed and documented by police at the time.

[harry]

It is by no means certain that BS simply walked up to Stride and began an attack.She may have accosted him.I doubt Schwartz would have seen Liz untill a hand was placed on her shoulder.He was behind BS,a broad shouldered fella,the light was poor,and she was wearing dark clothing.In addition it is by no means clear whether she was just inside or on a par with the entrance.Even BS may have been taken unawares by her appearance,and was simply pushing away,perhaps rather forcibly,an unwanted solicitation.It happens.Rejections of the kind would have been commonplace.
Schwartz also tells of raised voices as he hurried away,so it seems at least her mouth may have been in use to raise a scream if she really felt threatened.
So on the information to hand,I do not see BS as even her killer.

[Fisherman]

Right, Harry, here it is (again):

12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the oppos- ite side of the road, 'Lipski', and then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far.

"...he saw a man stop and speak to a woman"
And so it seems the inititative was on BS man´s behalf, not on Strides.

"The man tried to pull the woman into the street"
And so he was not trying to push away at all - he tried to drag her with him.

"the woman screamed three times, but not loudly"
And so we KNOW that she was able to call out - but chose to do so in a lowered voice.

As has been pointed out by many posters here, BS man is by far the most probable killer of Stride. If he was Jack or not is another question, but there are no ways to get around the fact that he manhandled her very few minutes before she was found dead, and that he is the very last person seen in her company before that discovery. So we have a man who physically abuses a woman mere minutes before she is killed, and we have witness testimony saying that (apart from Goldstein) no other persons were seen around the area at that time.
Harry, drawing the conclusion that this points to BS mans innocense defies logic. Surely you must see that?

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Yes Fish, I really can't see why BSM should be suspected of being innocent!

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

That, David, is an interesting way of putting it...

The best,
Fisherman