Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Monty]

Confused of Leicester

Im not sure I follow you How.

Im not talking about Stride per se, nor any of the victims. Im saying if you trawl through the papers of the lvp you will note that the number of general attacks, on either sex, are stabbings.

Throat cuts are rarer than we have been told by some authors. Thus to have 2 in one night is unique.

Monty

[Howard Brown]

Whilst working on our current project, Jake pointed out that there were far more stab attacks than throat cuts reported in the papers of the time.----Montague Druitt-Bell

Dear Monty:

Not sure how to put this without sounding testy to you,old friend...but if the Coroner's report from her Inquest reported no stab wounds to the torso of Mrs. Stride, then in all likelihood, isn't it more likely that the mention of stab wounds of any number,even one, is in error?
Sincerely,sor...
Mr. GSG

[Monty]

Everyone knows my hesitance with Stride however what Im about to post may be of interest to the pro camp.

Whilst working on our current project, Jake pointed out that there were far more stab attacks that throat cuts reported in the papers of the time.

Make of that what you will.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Quite so. The timing of the double event is just too coincidentally neat for me to accept that it was another random killing

In order to conclude thus, Gary, it's necessary to know the "background probability" of random attacks in London at that time. It might feel like coincidence, but why "feel" when it's possible to quantify?

[Scotland Yard]

Hi Gentlemen

What is crucial if we are to include Liz Stride in the series is that the killer had ample time to remove to the Mitre Square area, pick up Eddowes and kill her.

Quite so. The timing of the double event is just too coincidentally neat for me to accept that it was another random killing of a prostitute who was most likely placed on the ground before being dispatched with a slash to the throat.

[Observer]

Hi Gentlemen

What is crucial if we are to include Liz Stride in the series is that the killer had ample time to remove to the Mitre Square area, pick up Eddowes and kill her. I know I'm stating the obvious, but Liz Stride will remain a possible Ripper victim due to this fact, and the fact that there is a slight link between the descriptions provided by Schwartz and Lawende.

The lack of mutilation? A fear of Schwartz, and or, Pipeman returning with a policeman?

all the best

Observer

[Scotland Yard]

Hi Sam,

Hello SY,If he reasoned that he could go elsewhere and find a more suitable victim/location, why didn't he just give up Liz Stride as "one that got away"?

By this point, she's had a good close-up look at a man who's accosted her. Perhaps the Ripper, knowing he planned to mutilate before the night was out one way or the other, thought he'd best do her in lest she identify him later.

Secondly, whilst he may have intended to take Stride elsewhere (precisely where is a moot point) that still doesn't explain what brought him to the backwater of Dutfield's Yard in the first place.

I theorised on this in an earlier post. Could be with at least two murders under his belt and with people on alert for a killer, he felt that sticking to the backwaters was a safer bet than the better-known prostitute hang-outs. He must have known the cops were under orders to keep an eye on them. Only later, after the botched Stride encounter and with his blood up, does he throw caution to the winds and make his way straight to 'Prostitute Island' opposite the entrance to Mitre Square where he knows the pickings are almost guaranteed.

In any event, what made Dutfield's Yard any more dangerous than the back of 29 Hanbury Street, where the Ripper really went to town - even though it was practically daylight and the residents within, and either side, were stepping out for work?

Maybe the Hanbury Street backyard didn't meet with his approval either and was far from his ideal in terms of secure solitude to do his work. After all, we've all seen what he was capable of when he really got some peace and quiet later. Could be that he had somewhere that did meet his requirements in mind for Stride (as you say the exact location's a moot point) which might have been another factor in him choosing the Berner Street area to hunt a victim.

Regards,
Gary

[Sam Flynn]

Hello SY,

then immediately heads off towards Mitre Square intending to do to some other poor woman what he'd planned to do to Stride if the conditions had been more favourable.

If he reasoned that he could go elsewhere and find a more suitable victim/location, why didn't he just give up Liz Stride as "one that got away"? I'm sure the Ripper can't have been that lucky to have struck gold with each woman he accosted and, if so, then it follows that some potential victims were let go in this way.

Secondly, whilst he may have intended to take Stride elsewhere (precisely where is a moot point) that still doesn't explain what brought him to the backwater of Dutfield's Yard in the first place. In any event, what made Dutfield's Yard any more dangerous than the back of 29 Hanbury Street, where the Ripper really went to town - even though it was practically daylight and the residents within, and either side, were stepping out for work?

[Ben]

A very reasonable suggestion there, SY.

I've often thought that Stride's non-compliance may have been a chief factor in the "difference" in approach.

Best regards,
Ben

[Scotland Yard]

Hi Observer,

BSM then grabs Liz by the arm, and manhandles her into the yard, poking a finger into her breast bone to emphasize points as she has her back to the wall behind the gate. Her years of men who are bullies has her guard somewhat down, and she pulls away, grabbing breath mints from her pocket as she intended to leave this man, and this taste in her mouth behind in the yard...he grabs her scarf, twists it, pulls her off her footing, and while holding her head and neck in a scarf sling, he slits her throat and drops her. All taking maybe two seconds. Her legs curl into her body. She dies.

Since we have a single cut, a man known to be assaulting her minutes before her death, a decidedly untouched body lying on its side and no evidence or witness that says BSM left before her cut, why complicate this?

This was just manslaughter, not field surgery.

I admit I find this scenario very persuasive but it doesn't preclude the following possibility:

That BSM was indeed the Ripper and his first and main intention upon encountering Stride was to lead her elsewhere, somewhere more out of the way as he recognised that the Yard wasn't an ideal spot for his work.

Once BSM's scared off the two witnesses, Stride's lack of compliance gets her knifed just out of sheer malice.

Supposing the way it played out was: She resists, gives him lip and, being someone with at least two murders to his 'credit' already, he snaps, thinking 'Sod it, I'll just kill her here and now for her troubles.' He gets her into the yard, dispatches her exactly as you describe and then immediately heads off towards Mitre Square intending to do to some other poor woman what he'd planned to do to Stride if the conditions had been more favourable.

As you say Michael, why complicate things? There's no reason to believe that the Ripper wasn't capable of a quick 'grudge' kill . This would explain both the similarities and the differences of the Stride murder with the Ripper's other attacks. Also, the sooner he leaves for Mitre square, the more time he has to get into a position to meet Kate Eddowes and talk her into going with him.

Makes sense to me.

[Sam Flynn]

Now a bit of trivia.Coincidence.A prostitute,a drunk? and a Jew meet at Dutfield yard at about 1245AM.Pure coincidence?
A prostitute,a serial killer and a cartman are in position a few yards away at 1AM.Pure coincidence?
We are sure the first happened.Why not the second?

You're putting Jack there by your second assertion - which is somewhat circular - and assuming that Stride was killed at 1AM, which is doubtful. Especially if it was the same "drunk" who killed Stride shortly after 1245, then got the hell out of there long before Diemschutz arrived - which seems the more likely scenario in my view.

If so, this is less a case of "co-incidence" than an "ipsi-incidence" - we could easily be talking about the same incident, with the same actors. Albeit that the various Jews, drunks, cartmen and alleged prostitutes make their entrances and exits at different times, and in different ways - one of whom, at least, takes her final bow.

[harry]

Michael,
Greetings to you too.
Sam,
Before the police arrived and some control was exerted,it seems that quite a number of people were in the yard moving about.Enough by plenty to ensure any signs were erased.As to blood,depends on how she was taken in,as to whether a trail was left.
To all.
If we are to believe Schwartz in total,then his statement that he heard raised voices as he hurried away,has to be studied.I can well believe Stride getting to her feet and giving the fella a mouthfull,but I do not see him giving a victory chant.So my impression is that she was not hurt by the fall,and there was no continuation at that point.As has been said,she would then have been on her guard against this first assailant.

Now a bit of trivia.Coincidence.A prostitute,a drunk? and a Jew meet at Dutfield yard at about 1245AM.Pure coincidence?
A prostitute,a serial killer and a cartman are in position a few yards away at 1AM.Pure coincidence?
We are sure the first happened.Why not the second?

[The Good Michael]

The more I look at this, the more I think BS Man is a club member, or pretended to be one. Schwartz says that Stride was standing in the gateway when a man stopped there to talk to her. She had been standing there for who knows how long, and a man approached her and threw her down in the street. This sounds very much like, "What the hell are you doing in front of a private club? Go away!"

"I'm waiting for someone." "I said, get out of here." Stride is thrown to the ground, but it's something she's used to when she's soliciting where she shouldn't be, so she doesn't call out loudly.

This could be 1 of 80 or 90 members who were there that night, but it does closely connect to the time that Eagle came back. Eagle says 12:40, but 12:45 is close enough that it is difficult to quibble over. Eagle could have dusted off his hands and gone into the club, and any one of a number of others could have been in the yard unseen, taking in some cleaner air than that of the pipes and cigars (william Wess cigar maker unionist). A member could have easily been in the privy and have come out as Stride was getting off the pavement, and have offered her to come in for a drink or something.
As Tom has suggested, Pipeman could have come back and done the work on Stride. Yet, there seems to be a Berner Street connection as the timing points that way to me.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike

Pulled her accross the pavement up into the yard and then dropped her, and slit her throat?

If this was a domestic/rage killing, I can't understand why BSM didn't just slit her throat in the street?

all the best

Observer

Hi Observer,

Here is what I believe is a scenario supported by the existing evidence.....BSM approaches Liz in the street, drunk...Schwartz is behind him....BSM grabs Liz and wants her to come with him down some alley, he pulls her into the street...she resists and falls, (its my contention the reason she is in the area at that time and after BSM's acosting is that she is there meet someone....her nice evening wear, flowers on her breast, breath fresheners, and a choice not to pay for her bed, and telling her friend she didnt know when she would return smacks of overnight date expectations to me)....Schwartz walks into BSM's view, and BSM tells him in some manner to bugger off,...enough of a potential threat to send another bystander off as well.

BSM then grabs Liz by the arm, and manhandles her into the yard, poking a finger into her breast bone to emphasize points as she has her back to the wall behind the gate. Her years of men who are bullies has her guard somewhat down, and she pulls away, grabbing breath mints from her pocket as she intended to leave this man, and this taste in her mouth behind in the yard...he grabs her scarf, twists it, pulls her off her footing, and while holding her head and neck in a scarf sling, he slits her throat and drops her. All taking maybe two seconds. Her legs curl into her body. She dies.

I will say this, although I cannot prove that the above was the way it happened, I do know that the above fits with all the known evidence, including Liz's bruises, ...and doesnt require anyone to assume BSM just leaves after the altercation when they are alone now,... that the Ripper comes in after BSM suddenly leaves Liz with a tip of the hat, ..or the Ripper decided to enter this time drunk and in the middle of the street, assaulting his intended victim on the street in front of witnesses.

Since we have a single cut, a man known to be assaulting her minutes before her death, a decidedly untouched body lying on its side and no evidence or witness that says BSM left before her cut, why complicate this?

This was just manslaughter, not field surgery.

Best regards.

[Monty]

Dont know which is more criminal..

...Strides murder or your puns.

Seriously, theres the club door, which I believe had a fan light. Krantz workshop which would have a lamp on, and Im sure there may have been light from at least 1 of the cottages that boardered the yard. That said, it werent Blackpool.

Monty