Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Observer,If there was enough time for a single killer, then arguably there was equal time available for two killers to have struck that night. Actually, there was more time available for two killers when you think about it...

That's true

The direction of the jet of blood from a cut throat would usually be in a direction away from the person who inflicted it, unless they stood in front of the victim and made like Zorro. On that basis, I can't see it taking much expertise or forethought to be standing in the "safe zone" - nor indeed to have enacted the prelude to Stride's death. It doesn't take a genius to wrestle with someone and cut their throat - all it requires is a degree of strength and a sharp knife, neither of which were the sole preserve of Jack the Ripper. What set him apart was the need and the ability to carry out swift mutilation, and this isn't present in the case of Elizabeth Stride.

Point I was trying to make though is that in Domestic/rage murders, one normally finds blood spattered everywhere. Also there are reasons why (if Stride was a Ripper victim) Stride was not mutilated. As I said, it could well be that the Ripper, if Ripper he was, was wary of Schwartz, or Pipeman returning with a policeman.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Observer,

But if you look at my original post I intimated that there was ample time for a single killer to have commited both the murders

If there was enough time for a single killer, then arguably there was equal time available for two killers to have struck that night. Actually, there was more time available for two killers when you think about it...

How many men would have employed the determined single minded method of quickly silencing Liz Stride, lowering her to the ground, and then slitting her throat so that all the blood, all of the blood was directed away from him?

The direction of the jet of blood from a cut throat would usually be in a direction away from the person who inflicted it, unless they stood in front of the victim and made like Zorro. On that basis, I can't see it taking much expertise or forethought to be standing in the "safe zone" - nor indeed to have enacted the prelude to Stride's death. It doesn't take a genius to wrestle with someone and cut their throat - all it requires is a degree of strength and a sharp knife, neither of which were the sole preserve of Jack the Ripper. What set him apart was the need and the ability to carry out swift mutilation, and this isn't present in the case of Elizabeth Stride.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Gary's point was about the "neatness" of the timing of the two murders, rather than the "methodical" nature of Stride's murder as a single entity.That would narrow it down to at least a few hundred men in the East End, if not thousands, Observer. That's something that we overlook at our peril.

I realised this point Sam. Should have made myself more precise. But if you look at my original post I intimated that there was ample time for a single killer to have commited both the murders, and that Gary concurred.

How many men would have employed the determined single minded method of quickly silencing Liz Stride, lowering her to the ground, and then slitting her throat so that all the blood, all of the blood was directed away from him?

Not so much as a drop was found anywhere other than in a line from her throat to the drain.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

My thoughts also, Liz Stride's murder was too neat, far too methodical for it to have been a rage killing

Gary's point was about the "neatness" of the timing of the two murders, rather than the "methodical" nature of Stride's murder as a single entity.

whoever killed her in my opinion was no stranger to the knife.

That would narrow it down to at least a few hundred men in the East End, if not thousands, Observer. That's something that we overlook at our peril.

[Monty]

How,

Apologies for being unclear.

Monty

PS Good show today?

[joelhall]

to be honest i was never a fan of stride.

however, someone in a rage or acting on impulse, as well as those unaccustomed to killing are more likely to stab, usually to the lower half of the torso.

the very act of throat cutting is a more controlled & deliberate one.

[Howard Brown]

Monty Cristo:

I thought you were referring to Stride alone:

Everyone knows my hesitance with Stride however what I'm about to post may be of interest to the pro camp.

Whilst working on our current project, Jake pointed out that there were far more stab attacks that throat cuts reported in the papers of the time.

Make of that what you will.

So...what I made of it,old bean, was that you were bringing up reports relative to Stride. Its clear as a Neil Bell now.

Sincerely,sor...
Mr. Currie Ward

[Observer]

Hi Gary

Quite so. The timing of the double event is just too coincidentally neat for me to accept that it was another random killing of a prostitute who was most likely placed on the ground before being dispatched with a slash to the throat.

My thoughts also, Liz Stride's murder was too neat, far too methodical for it to have been a rage killing, whoever killed her in my opinion was no stranger to the knife.

all the best

Observer

[Monty]

Confused of Leicester

Im not sure I follow you How.

Im not talking about Stride per se, nor any of the victims. Im saying if you trawl through the papers of the lvp you will note that the number of general attacks, on either sex, are stabbings.

Throat cuts are rarer than we have been told by some authors. Thus to have 2 in one night is unique.

Monty

[Howard Brown]

Whilst working on our current project, Jake pointed out that there were far more stab attacks than throat cuts reported in the papers of the time.----Montague Druitt-Bell

Dear Monty:

Not sure how to put this without sounding testy to you,old friend...but if the Coroner's report from her Inquest reported no stab wounds to the torso of Mrs. Stride, then in all likelihood, isn't it more likely that the mention of stab wounds of any number,even one, is in error?
Sincerely,sor...
Mr. GSG

[Monty]

Everyone knows my hesitance with Stride however what Im about to post may be of interest to the pro camp.

Whilst working on our current project, Jake pointed out that there were far more stab attacks that throat cuts reported in the papers of the time.

Make of that what you will.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Quite so. The timing of the double event is just too coincidentally neat for me to accept that it was another random killing

In order to conclude thus, Gary, it's necessary to know the "background probability" of random attacks in London at that time. It might feel like coincidence, but why "feel" when it's possible to quantify?

[Scotland Yard]

Hi Gentlemen

What is crucial if we are to include Liz Stride in the series is that the killer had ample time to remove to the Mitre Square area, pick up Eddowes and kill her.

Quite so. The timing of the double event is just too coincidentally neat for me to accept that it was another random killing of a prostitute who was most likely placed on the ground before being dispatched with a slash to the throat.

[Observer]

Hi Gentlemen

What is crucial if we are to include Liz Stride in the series is that the killer had ample time to remove to the Mitre Square area, pick up Eddowes and kill her. I know I'm stating the obvious, but Liz Stride will remain a possible Ripper victim due to this fact, and the fact that there is a slight link between the descriptions provided by Schwartz and Lawende.

The lack of mutilation? A fear of Schwartz, and or, Pipeman returning with a policeman?

all the best

Observer

[Scotland Yard]

Hi Sam,

Hello SY,If he reasoned that he could go elsewhere and find a more suitable victim/location, why didn't he just give up Liz Stride as "one that got away"?

By this point, she's had a good close-up look at a man who's accosted her. Perhaps the Ripper, knowing he planned to mutilate before the night was out one way or the other, thought he'd best do her in lest she identify him later.

Secondly, whilst he may have intended to take Stride elsewhere (precisely where is a moot point) that still doesn't explain what brought him to the backwater of Dutfield's Yard in the first place.

I theorised on this in an earlier post. Could be with at least two murders under his belt and with people on alert for a killer, he felt that sticking to the backwaters was a safer bet than the better-known prostitute hang-outs. He must have known the cops were under orders to keep an eye on them. Only later, after the botched Stride encounter and with his blood up, does he throw caution to the winds and make his way straight to 'Prostitute Island' opposite the entrance to Mitre Square where he knows the pickings are almost guaranteed.

In any event, what made Dutfield's Yard any more dangerous than the back of 29 Hanbury Street, where the Ripper really went to town - even though it was practically daylight and the residents within, and either side, were stepping out for work?

Maybe the Hanbury Street backyard didn't meet with his approval either and was far from his ideal in terms of secure solitude to do his work. After all, we've all seen what he was capable of when he really got some peace and quiet later. Could be that he had somewhere that did meet his requirements in mind for Stride (as you say the exact location's a moot point) which might have been another factor in him choosing the Berner Street area to hunt a victim.

Regards,
Gary