Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Scotland Yard]

So if the same man scenario is to be accepted,there would have to be a period of his diminishing rage,then a time of pacification with a victim that would surely have viewed any approach with extreme caution.I simply can't accept it.Timing wouldn't allow it.

The timing wouldn't have allowed for the killer to compose himself on his way to Mitre Square?

Why ever not? Its at least a ten minute walk and there's no evidence he met Eddowes right away. Ample time for an adrenalized person to at least 'assume' an air of innocuosness. In fact I'd say the condition would lend itself to putting on a 'performance' of someone with a casual air about them. Its possible that whatever high emoton made him kill Stride, it had dissipated into a calm exhilleration by the time he met Eddowes.

Regards,
Gary

[The Good Michael]

Harry,

A completely sensible alternative to other things people try to make work.

Mike

[harry]

There is a limited time period of perhaps 12-13 minutes from the first contact with Stride,untill Diemschultz arrives.As I said before,it does not appear,from what Scwartz reported,a continuous attack beginning with a throw to the ground and ending with a cut throat,(refer his hearing raised voices,and evidence of Stride being killed inside the yard).So if the same man scenario is to be accepted,there would have to be a period of his diminishing rage,then a time of pacification with a victim that would surely have viewed any approach with extreme caution.I simply can't accept it.Timing wouldn't allow it.
What I can accept is that the first altercation having ended,that attacker,faced with a hostile response,quickly exits the scene leaving another apparent sympathetic person to console her.We can at least place another man on the scene.
Sam,
Of course I meant the ripper,but not knowing his name,I had to create another desciption.

[Scotland Yard]

In order to conclude thus, Gary, it's necessary to know the "background probability" of random attacks in London at that time. It might feel like coincidence, but why "feel" when it's possible to quantify?

Thinking this over, what's the 'background probability' of someone having their throat cut by a serial killer who not only favoured the cutting of throats but also was known to be at large in the area that night.?

[joelhall]

or maybe cos his mate was there too, he didnt have to take anything to prove hed done it.

[Scotland Yard]

In order to conclude thus, Gary, it's necessary to know the "background probability" of random attacks in London at that time. It might feel like coincidence, but why "feel" when it's possible to quantify?

Fair enough.

If he had been Jack, then I can easily imagine her ending up with more than half her neck cut through - and possibly a lot more besides.

Yes, I can too. But I can just as easily imagine any number of reasons for him to skidaddle just as soon as he'd killed her. As Observer suggested, maybe he was worried that one or both of the two blokes he'd just scared off might return and he felt he was taking a big enough chance even cutting her throat. Maybe the proximty of the club door coupled with a sound from within sent him packing.

His compulsion to mutilate may have been strong but his desire to not get caught I'll wager was stronger.

The first two of the Yorkshire Ripper's victims survived because he was interrupted. Sometimes random chance is the difference between life and death. Or in this case it could have been the difference between a cut throat and extensive mutilation.

Gary

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Observer,

As I said, it could well be that the Ripper, if Ripper he was, was wary of Schwartz, or Pipeman returning with a policeman

Which brings me back to a point I made earlier, namely - why didn't her assailant just leave it there at the point that Schwartz left? After all, it's not as if being charged with squabbling was going to get him into much hot water with the Law, even assuming that Liz - or the police - decided to take it further. It strikes me that Stride's killer took it into his mind to kill her, but to do no more than that.

If he had been Jack, then I can easily imagine her ending up with more than half her neck cut through - and possibly a lot more besides. It would have taken scarcely a minute for the knife to have completed any intended circumnavigation of her throat, for her skirts to be thrown up and at least an initial slash to be made into her abdomen.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Observer,If there was enough time for a single killer, then arguably there was equal time available for two killers to have struck that night. Actually, there was more time available for two killers when you think about it...

That's true

The direction of the jet of blood from a cut throat would usually be in a direction away from the person who inflicted it, unless they stood in front of the victim and made like Zorro. On that basis, I can't see it taking much expertise or forethought to be standing in the "safe zone" - nor indeed to have enacted the prelude to Stride's death. It doesn't take a genius to wrestle with someone and cut their throat - all it requires is a degree of strength and a sharp knife, neither of which were the sole preserve of Jack the Ripper. What set him apart was the need and the ability to carry out swift mutilation, and this isn't present in the case of Elizabeth Stride.

Point I was trying to make though is that in Domestic/rage murders, one normally finds blood spattered everywhere. Also there are reasons why (if Stride was a Ripper victim) Stride was not mutilated. As I said, it could well be that the Ripper, if Ripper he was, was wary of Schwartz, or Pipeman returning with a policeman.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Observer,

But if you look at my original post I intimated that there was ample time for a single killer to have commited both the murders

If there was enough time for a single killer, then arguably there was equal time available for two killers to have struck that night. Actually, there was more time available for two killers when you think about it...

How many men would have employed the determined single minded method of quickly silencing Liz Stride, lowering her to the ground, and then slitting her throat so that all the blood, all of the blood was directed away from him?

The direction of the jet of blood from a cut throat would usually be in a direction away from the person who inflicted it, unless they stood in front of the victim and made like Zorro. On that basis, I can't see it taking much expertise or forethought to be standing in the "safe zone" - nor indeed to have enacted the prelude to Stride's death. It doesn't take a genius to wrestle with someone and cut their throat - all it requires is a degree of strength and a sharp knife, neither of which were the sole preserve of Jack the Ripper. What set him apart was the need and the ability to carry out swift mutilation, and this isn't present in the case of Elizabeth Stride.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Gary's point was about the "neatness" of the timing of the two murders, rather than the "methodical" nature of Stride's murder as a single entity.That would narrow it down to at least a few hundred men in the East End, if not thousands, Observer. That's something that we overlook at our peril.

I realised this point Sam. Should have made myself more precise. But if you look at my original post I intimated that there was ample time for a single killer to have commited both the murders, and that Gary concurred.

How many men would have employed the determined single minded method of quickly silencing Liz Stride, lowering her to the ground, and then slitting her throat so that all the blood, all of the blood was directed away from him?

Not so much as a drop was found anywhere other than in a line from her throat to the drain.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

My thoughts also, Liz Stride's murder was too neat, far too methodical for it to have been a rage killing

Gary's point was about the "neatness" of the timing of the two murders, rather than the "methodical" nature of Stride's murder as a single entity.

whoever killed her in my opinion was no stranger to the knife.

That would narrow it down to at least a few hundred men in the East End, if not thousands, Observer. That's something that we overlook at our peril.

[Monty]

How,

Apologies for being unclear.

Monty

PS Good show today?

[joelhall]

to be honest i was never a fan of stride.

however, someone in a rage or acting on impulse, as well as those unaccustomed to killing are more likely to stab, usually to the lower half of the torso.

the very act of throat cutting is a more controlled & deliberate one.

[Howard Brown]

Monty Cristo:

I thought you were referring to Stride alone:

Everyone knows my hesitance with Stride however what I'm about to post may be of interest to the pro camp.

Whilst working on our current project, Jake pointed out that there were far more stab attacks that throat cuts reported in the papers of the time.

Make of that what you will.

So...what I made of it,old bean, was that you were bringing up reports relative to Stride. Its clear as a Neil Bell now.

Sincerely,sor...
Mr. Currie Ward

[Observer]

Hi Gary

Quite so. The timing of the double event is just too coincidentally neat for me to accept that it was another random killing of a prostitute who was most likely placed on the ground before being dispatched with a slash to the throat.

My thoughts also, Liz Stride's murder was too neat, far too methodical for it to have been a rage killing, whoever killed her in my opinion was no stranger to the knife.

all the best

Observer