Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Sam Flynn]

Hello SY,

then immediately heads off towards Mitre Square intending to do to some other poor woman what he'd planned to do to Stride if the conditions had been more favourable.

If he reasoned that he could go elsewhere and find a more suitable victim/location, why didn't he just give up Liz Stride as "one that got away"? I'm sure the Ripper can't have been that lucky to have struck gold with each woman he accosted and, if so, then it follows that some potential victims were let go in this way.

Secondly, whilst he may have intended to take Stride elsewhere (precisely where is a moot point) that still doesn't explain what brought him to the backwater of Dutfield's Yard in the first place. In any event, what made Dutfield's Yard any more dangerous than the back of 29 Hanbury Street, where the Ripper really went to town - even though it was practically daylight and the residents within, and either side, were stepping out for work?

[Ben]

A very reasonable suggestion there, SY.

I've often thought that Stride's non-compliance may have been a chief factor in the "difference" in approach.

Best regards,
Ben

[Scotland Yard]

Hi Observer,

BSM then grabs Liz by the arm, and manhandles her into the yard, poking a finger into her breast bone to emphasize points as she has her back to the wall behind the gate. Her years of men who are bullies has her guard somewhat down, and she pulls away, grabbing breath mints from her pocket as she intended to leave this man, and this taste in her mouth behind in the yard...he grabs her scarf, twists it, pulls her off her footing, and while holding her head and neck in a scarf sling, he slits her throat and drops her. All taking maybe two seconds. Her legs curl into her body. She dies.

Since we have a single cut, a man known to be assaulting her minutes before her death, a decidedly untouched body lying on its side and no evidence or witness that says BSM left before her cut, why complicate this?

This was just manslaughter, not field surgery.

I admit I find this scenario very persuasive but it doesn't preclude the following possibility:

That BSM was indeed the Ripper and his first and main intention upon encountering Stride was to lead her elsewhere, somewhere more out of the way as he recognised that the Yard wasn't an ideal spot for his work.

Once BSM's scared off the two witnesses, Stride's lack of compliance gets her knifed just out of sheer malice.

Supposing the way it played out was: She resists, gives him lip and, being someone with at least two murders to his 'credit' already, he snaps, thinking 'Sod it, I'll just kill her here and now for her troubles.' He gets her into the yard, dispatches her exactly as you describe and then immediately heads off towards Mitre Square intending to do to some other poor woman what he'd planned to do to Stride if the conditions had been more favourable.

As you say Michael, why complicate things? There's no reason to believe that the Ripper wasn't capable of a quick 'grudge' kill . This would explain both the similarities and the differences of the Stride murder with the Ripper's other attacks. Also, the sooner he leaves for Mitre square, the more time he has to get into a position to meet Kate Eddowes and talk her into going with him.

Makes sense to me.

[Sam Flynn]

Now a bit of trivia.Coincidence.A prostitute,a drunk? and a Jew meet at Dutfield yard at about 1245AM.Pure coincidence?
A prostitute,a serial killer and a cartman are in position a few yards away at 1AM.Pure coincidence?
We are sure the first happened.Why not the second?

You're putting Jack there by your second assertion - which is somewhat circular - and assuming that Stride was killed at 1AM, which is doubtful. Especially if it was the same "drunk" who killed Stride shortly after 1245, then got the hell out of there long before Diemschutz arrived - which seems the more likely scenario in my view.

If so, this is less a case of "co-incidence" than an "ipsi-incidence" - we could easily be talking about the same incident, with the same actors. Albeit that the various Jews, drunks, cartmen and alleged prostitutes make their entrances and exits at different times, and in different ways - one of whom, at least, takes her final bow.

[harry]

Michael,
Greetings to you too.
Sam,
Before the police arrived and some control was exerted,it seems that quite a number of people were in the yard moving about.Enough by plenty to ensure any signs were erased.As to blood,depends on how she was taken in,as to whether a trail was left.
To all.
If we are to believe Schwartz in total,then his statement that he heard raised voices as he hurried away,has to be studied.I can well believe Stride getting to her feet and giving the fella a mouthfull,but I do not see him giving a victory chant.So my impression is that she was not hurt by the fall,and there was no continuation at that point.As has been said,she would then have been on her guard against this first assailant.

Now a bit of trivia.Coincidence.A prostitute,a drunk? and a Jew meet at Dutfield yard at about 1245AM.Pure coincidence?
A prostitute,a serial killer and a cartman are in position a few yards away at 1AM.Pure coincidence?
We are sure the first happened.Why not the second?

[The Good Michael]

The more I look at this, the more I think BS Man is a club member, or pretended to be one. Schwartz says that Stride was standing in the gateway when a man stopped there to talk to her. She had been standing there for who knows how long, and a man approached her and threw her down in the street. This sounds very much like, "What the hell are you doing in front of a private club? Go away!"

"I'm waiting for someone." "I said, get out of here." Stride is thrown to the ground, but it's something she's used to when she's soliciting where she shouldn't be, so she doesn't call out loudly.

This could be 1 of 80 or 90 members who were there that night, but it does closely connect to the time that Eagle came back. Eagle says 12:40, but 12:45 is close enough that it is difficult to quibble over. Eagle could have dusted off his hands and gone into the club, and any one of a number of others could have been in the yard unseen, taking in some cleaner air than that of the pipes and cigars (william Wess cigar maker unionist). A member could have easily been in the privy and have come out as Stride was getting off the pavement, and have offered her to come in for a drink or something.
As Tom has suggested, Pipeman could have come back and done the work on Stride. Yet, there seems to be a Berner Street connection as the timing points that way to me.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike

Pulled her accross the pavement up into the yard and then dropped her, and slit her throat?

If this was a domestic/rage killing, I can't understand why BSM didn't just slit her throat in the street?

all the best

Observer

Hi Observer,

Here is what I believe is a scenario supported by the existing evidence.....BSM approaches Liz in the street, drunk...Schwartz is behind him....BSM grabs Liz and wants her to come with him down some alley, he pulls her into the street...she resists and falls, (its my contention the reason she is in the area at that time and after BSM's acosting is that she is there meet someone....her nice evening wear, flowers on her breast, breath fresheners, and a choice not to pay for her bed, and telling her friend she didnt know when she would return smacks of overnight date expectations to me)....Schwartz walks into BSM's view, and BSM tells him in some manner to bugger off,...enough of a potential threat to send another bystander off as well.

BSM then grabs Liz by the arm, and manhandles her into the yard, poking a finger into her breast bone to emphasize points as she has her back to the wall behind the gate. Her years of men who are bullies has her guard somewhat down, and she pulls away, grabbing breath mints from her pocket as she intended to leave this man, and this taste in her mouth behind in the yard...he grabs her scarf, twists it, pulls her off her footing, and while holding her head and neck in a scarf sling, he slits her throat and drops her. All taking maybe two seconds. Her legs curl into her body. She dies.

I will say this, although I cannot prove that the above was the way it happened, I do know that the above fits with all the known evidence, including Liz's bruises, ...and doesnt require anyone to assume BSM just leaves after the altercation when they are alone now,... that the Ripper comes in after BSM suddenly leaves Liz with a tip of the hat, ..or the Ripper decided to enter this time drunk and in the middle of the street, assaulting his intended victim on the street in front of witnesses.

Since we have a single cut, a man known to be assaulting her minutes before her death, a decidedly untouched body lying on its side and no evidence or witness that says BSM left before her cut, why complicate this?

This was just manslaughter, not field surgery.

Best regards.

[Monty]

Dont know which is more criminal..

...Strides murder or your puns.

Seriously, theres the club door, which I believe had a fan light. Krantz workshop which would have a lamp on, and Im sure there may have been light from at least 1 of the cottages that boardered the yard. That said, it werent Blackpool.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Krantz was also down the far end of the yard...

...so she could've had her Phil, as well!

[Monty]

Krantz was also down the far end of the yard.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Cant see her retreating into a darkened yard Sam. Into a dead end?

...before she got to the dead end, there was light, noise, people, and a chance of safety. In the other direction? A boozy bully who'd just roughed her up.

[Observer]

Cant see her retreating into a darkened yard Sam. Into a dead end?

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

If this was a domestic/rage killing, I can't understand why BSM didn't just slit her throat in the street?

People tend to move about when they're scuffling - they don't remain rooted to the same spot. Liz might have started back into the yard, only for him to catch up with her and wrestle - fatefully - with her again.

[joelhall]

anyone ever thought from the risks taken this killer was never worried about getting caught?

[Observer]

Hi Mike

. I think she just misread BSM, and smarted off to him. She turned away, he got hold of the scarf...pull, twist, slit, drop.

Pulled her accross the pavement up into the yard and then dropped her, and slit her throat?

If this was a domestic/rage killing, I can't understand why BSM didn't just slit her throat in the street?

all the best

Observer