Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[Fisherman]

Suzi writes:
"all he had to do was emerge from the darkness and join the locals,who'd arrived to see what the kerfuffle was,then as the crowd increased just allow himself to be jostled to the back of the ever increasing crowd and off and away into the darkness of the court system or wherever"

Suzi, this is a possibility that is often mentioned. But it has it´s drawbacks.

Consider the situation pre-Diemschutz (or -schitz...) Then, with Jack in the picture, we have a man who is in the yard with Liz, intent on killing her.

Now, take a look at the cut in the neck, which it is not as deep as the ordinary Ripper cuts by a long way. When did it come about?

Well, if it happened before Diemschutz arrived, we are left with the task of explaining why he suddenly settled for a shallow cut and no mutilations.

It could also be that he was disturbed – in that case he would have been disturbed in the exact moment when he cut, explaining why he never sunk his blade deeper into Strides neck.

The last possibility is of course that he heard Diemschutz´ pony, and killed her swiftly in spite of that. That means that we have to explain why he took an immense risk, without having to; he could have just walked away, leaving Stride unharmed. The other way around, we are faced with having to explain why he would cut in a shallow manner, risking that she was able to survive, and also taking the risk of withdrawing into the yard with all the perils THAT carried with itself.

I think that the only remotely credible alternative here is the second one. And we are speaking VERY remote here. But I don´t think that he would have retreated into the yard if he had been interrupted while cutting. He would have heard the horse from quite some distance, and he must have realized that if Diemschutz was heading for Dutfields yard, he would have been caught in a cul-de-sac, something he surely would have tried to avoid.
Therefore, I think that he simply would have walked away from the yard in the situation that arose. To begin with, there was a very good chance that Diemschutz would have passed the Yard without turning into it, and if so, the Ripper would have been in no immediate danger. And even if Diemschutz did go into the yard, it would be much preferred by the Ripper to be on the outside of them gates when that happened, instead of hiding in a yard that would beyond doubt be searched.Remember that the people living there all would have known each other and that a complete stranger would have stood out – especially one with a bloody knife in his pocket!

And, of course, in both these cases it applies that he would have had the time to cut Stride to the bone in the first place, ensuring no witness testimony on her behalf.

So how do we avoid all these inconsistencies and logical problems? Well, we do that by accepting that the man who cut Strides neck was NOT the Ripper, and by realizing that he was out of the yard by the time Diemschutz approached it.
B S man is in all probability Strides killer, and he is – likewise in all probability – NOT Jack the Ripper.

All the best,

Fisherman

[kensei]

Hmm, so many things to respond to.

First of all, to Suzi, IF Liz's killer was Jack and IF he had remained in the yard long enough to blend into the crowd that soon formed, he never would have had time enough to make it to Mire Square to meet, engage and kill Catherine Eddowes. I think the hiding in the yard theory involves the fact that Diemshutz did not just stay with Liz's body and yell for help but went inside the club- by some accounts, to make sure that the body he'd had only a very dim glimpse of by matchlight in pitch darkness was not that of his wife- and that that was when Jack made his escape.

And to Fisherman, it seems to me that the depth of a cut has more to do with the force with which it was inflicted than with the time available in which to do so. The impression given of Jack's throat attacks is that they were not done with sawing motion but with one stroke. Why less force would have been applied to Liz, I guess the only speculation would be that perhaps Jack heard the approaching horse cart in the exact instant of his cut and it made him hesitate while in motion, but that would indeed be wild speculation. I think it should also be considered that a person does not die instantly from a cut throat. Quickly, yes, but not instantly. It's not like being shot in the head. Diemshutz's impression was that he was looking at someone dead, not dying. But again, he was operating in extreme darkness, and there's also the possibility that Liz (and some of the other victims) were strangled unconscious prior to the fatal cut. So much to speculate on. No one will ever know for sure.

[Suzi]

Good points Fisherman

No way though will I ever be convinced that Liz's killer was connected in any way with the killer/killers we know as The Whitechapel Murderer aka Jack the Ripper.
Oh and as a- by the way- I'm always intrigued why Louis D thought at first it may be his wife- was she in the habit of teetering out of the club and slumping down outside? ( ) The excuse that she may have gone outside for a ciggie and had a short,sharp attack of gravity- happily wasn't a viable one then...........

Suzi

[Fisherman]

Hi Suzi!

What you are saying here is basically that Stride would not have been a Ripper victim. And if that is what you mean, we´re agreed! Then again, if you have left out a "not" here, it´s another thing altogether...!

As for Diemschutz´suspicion that it could have been his mrs lying there, I think that he shared the concern of many Eastenders that there was a maniac roaming the streets, and as mrs Diemschutz was stationed, I believe, directly behind the door leading out into Dutfield´s Yard from the club, I think it was an understandable concern on his behalf.

All the best, Suzi!

Fisherman

[Suzi]

We're agreed Fisherman!!

I quite like the image of Mrs D being in the habit of tottering off for a crafty ciggie (or whatever!) when the 'political' singing got a tad tedious though!! " Just off to wash the cups up dearies".....Kerrrraaaash!! Tinkle!!!!! she fell to the floor!

Suzi x

[Fisherman]

Hi Kensei!

You write:
" Why less force would have been applied to Liz, I guess the only speculation would be that perhaps Jack heard the approaching horse cart in the exact instant of his cut and it made him hesitate while in motion, but that would indeed be wild speculation. I think it should also be considered that a person does not die instantly from a cut throat. Quickly, yes, but not instantly. It's not like being shot in the head. Diemshutz's impression was that he was looking at someone dead, not dying."

The notion that the killer would have been disturbed in that split second when he set about cutting is a very convenient one for those who want the Ripper on stage. If we count it in seconds and give the Ripper a theoretical five minutes in the Yard (could have been more, could have been less), then we are faced with 300 to one odds, and I think that should give anyone thinking "Ripper" here a pause.

Moreover, like I said, even if Jack DID hear the pony approaching, it would take him only one more second to go to the bottom of things, so to speak.

Incidentally, I have come to believe that the reason that he cut throats very deeply was NOT to bleed his victims but to ensure their silence. The rest was just a bonus, if I am correct. But that is for another thread!

As for Diemschutz, there was no way that he could tell that he was looking at a dead woman, not in that darkness. She was immobile, and did not react to his prodding her with the end of his whip, and that led him to think that she was EITHER dead or drunk. The second alternative would be by far the most common and logical answer, I think.

The best, Kensei!

Fisherman

[Suzi]

Hi all-
Back to the insensible woman bit- Of course Polly was almost mistaken for a tarpaulin and I am quite sure that the sight of people slumped/propped on streets or doorways,either drunk/insensible or asleep was a disarmingly common sight - as it is today in many city centres. We pass by don't we -most of the time.

OK- I know we're not living under the shadow of a 'Whitechapel Murderer'- but to be honest how often have we seen a figure slumped in a doorway/alleyway and shall we say "passed by (in some haste) on the other side"

Suzi x

[c.d.]

I fail to see why the depth of the cut has become such a big issue. It accomplished its purpose did it not? There could be any number of reasons that the cut was not as deep as the others. Liz could have struggled more than the other victims so that Jack might not have been in the optimum position to make the cut. It might have been Liz's own knife or a different knife than the one he had used before and it did not fit his hand as well. He might have been more nervous this time and his hand was sweaty. These are just a few plausible explanations. It seems like we can't see the forest for the trees. Jack cut throats. Liz had her throat cut. If the BS man was her killer, why do we simply take for granted that he would have cut her throat as opposed to roughing her up a bit or stabbing her somewhere else? And why do we just glance over the fact that he did so after being seen by a witness or witnesses (if you include the Pipe Man)?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

C.d. writes:
"I fail to see why the depth of the cut has become such a big issue"

No you don´t, c.d. You realize that since we have a few common traits to go by from the other alledged Ripper killings, any deviations from this is bound to raise eyebrows. And indeed, so it should!

It is another thing altogether to queue a number of possible explanations to the fact that the cut was shallow. In fact, if you feel like going all the way, you could say that Liz´cut was the only true Ripper cut, and that he probably slipped doing the others, travelling a lot deeper with the knife than what was his original intention.

Stride was the only victim killed south of Whitechapel High Street - could be a coincidence.
She had her throat cut, but in a more shallow manner, differing her from the others - could be a coincidence.
She ended up lying on her side, as the only Ripper victim - could be a coincidence.
She was seen being attacked right before she was killed, as the only Ripper victim - could be a coincidence.
She was seen kissing and gently speaking with a man in a very unhookerish way very near to her death, as the only Ripper victim - could be a coincidence.
She was the only Ripper victim that escaped having her belly ripped open - could be a coincidence.

Do you, c.d., see why some of us lend weight to these matters, or do you think that they have likewise become the objects of incomprehensible attention? She was cut in the neck and died, ergo she was a Ripper victim, sort of? No matter what?

Come on, c.d...!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Jack cut throats...

...extensively.

Liz had her throat cut...

...true, but not quite as extensively. Whilst it might not rule Jack out, CD, we have to consider the depth and extent of the throat wound, which was shallower in Stride's case than in the others, and appears not to have extended as far around the neck.

[Observer]

Did the killer want to kill Elizabeth Stride? What if the individual whom Stride was seen with for the better part of an hour and a half was Jack the Ripper. He was observed kissing and hugging Stride, what if he developed a genuine liking for Liz Stride in the brief time he had known her? Trouble is he might have considered Stride a threat if he wanted his identity kept secret, who knows what dialogue transpired between them. So he cuts Liz Stride's throat but his heart was not in it, and he could not bring himself to mutilate her.


Gary Ridgeway let a few women off the hook because they showed a certain kindness to him.

all the best

Observer

[Fisherman]

Me oh my, Observer...!

That was the kind of question you either answer with + 10 000 signs, or not at all.
I´ll bow out, if you don´t mind.

The best,
Fisherman

[Mitch Rowe]

...extensively....true, but not quite as extensively. Whilst it might not rule Jack out, CD, we have to consider the depth and extent of the throat wound, which was shallower in Stride's case than in the others, and appears not to have extended as far around the neck.

Yes..Well... This is the way I look at it. People are sort of lazy. If JTR was really cutting the necks to drain the blood in an attempt to make the mutilations less bloody then why would he bother with Stride? Cutting the neck so deeply like the other victims was probably considered work to JTR. If JTR aborts the Stride mission he either wants her dead for kicks or to keep her mouth shut. If JTR backs out of the deal at the gates then Liz might think something strange is happening. When that happens the next thing that will come to her mind will probably be the Whitechapel Murderer. If he goes on to kill again that night Liz is sure to tell.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes..Well... This is the way I look at it. People are sort of lazy. If JTR was really cutting the necks to drain the blood in an attempt to make the mutilations less bloody then why would he bother with Stride?

Why did he bother with the other four?

[Mitch Rowe]

Why did he bother with the other four?

Because he intended to mutilate them. Ive never mutilated a body but I suspect the more blood drained from it the less blood I have to deal with.