What makes her such a likely candidate?

[anna]

And something else to add would be this..
Even in these more sophisticated times,we always instinctively look for a light as opposed to making do with the dark,if we have to do something.
OK,they were used to less light than we are nowadays,with gas lamps being their main sorce of illumination.
But I still think an ordinary local would have chosen lighted areas instinctively,for any sort of task that required some sort of concentration.
A local "ordinary" person I would think would also have fled the scenes after killing the women..hanging around to mutilate would be far too risky to these simple folk.Killing = scarper before your'e caught,don't hang around.Are we really to believe someone with this sort of mindset...that would have been very strongly ingrained in them,in everyday life..hangs around to cut women in a way that would have meant having to spend time and do things that would equal the noose,and out in an open location where other locals might pass by.
I think this is expecting too much of the occupants of the Whitechapel area.
Simple folk,simple deeds.

[Fisherman]

Please remember, Anna, that when Nichols was lifted onto the ambulance and hurried away, there was no knowledge about the extensive damage to her abdominal region. The police will have learnt their lesson from that.
With Stride, there was knowledge that an eviscerating killer, who incidentally cut throats, was on the prowl.
So what do you do when you find a woman with a slit throat in the East End? Exactly, you make the very good assumption that this could be another Ripper victim, and you seal off the premises and start making a thorough search, with the clear aim not to miss out IF it proves that the cut lady is a Ripper victim.
There is nothing strange about that, and I dare say that the often resurfacing notion that the deed must have had something to it that convinced the police that it was a Ripper killing, has nothing at all to it. On the contrary, Stride was lying seemingly peacefully on her side in the yard, unmutilated and with a comparatively shallow wound to her neck, something that leads at least me in another direction altogether.

The best,
Fisherman

[anna]

Hi everyone,
This thread has kicked up a couple of points I have always wondered about myself..
My first point is this...we are talking about Jack killing and mutilating in very dark places.....add to this the discussion that Jack was a local with no formal medical training,and possibly that he was,or had been,a slaughterman.
It doesn't add up...killing in the dark,I can go for.Mutilating in the dark,I cannot....(Margo,Good Life..been watching the repeats!!!)
Surely if he is a local,therefore not the brightest spark in the box of matches,he is not likely to be able to contain his coolness,and mutilate in the dark(if indeed a slaughterhouse worker-who incidentally,I would think cut animals with some light on)..so I don't go for the local/slaughterhouse theory.

As to Stride.....I was wondering the same as another two ladies here..perhaps the women can see something the boys can't.
Sam says,there would have been other people murdered at that time by a cut to the throat..I presume some of them women.So,why weren't they included as Jack victims.Apart from the obvious of Kate's murder shortly after...doesn't explain for me,the circumstances following Liz's murder..with the yard sealed off and gates closed a.s.a.p,signifies to me that they took this to be a JTR murder without Kate's one yet to be achieved.It has always meant to me,that either they saw something we are not aware of...maybe something else he did at the scene,or sommething they had managed to deduce amongst themselves at the station,that we are not aware of.I have always felt that there is some sort of knowledge that was lost in 1888, that tied her into the 5.
A cut to the throat and another murder shortly after on the same night,is not enough for me...especially with so much other violence that would have taken place at the same time...why didn't they look at Liz and say..Oh,just another attack of violence,poor woman got cut and like with other we are called to quite often,then,she is surrounded by coppers and carted off to the morgue.With Liz,they practically go to Mary extremes and seal off the crime scene instantly,and before Kates murder is knowledge to them.
I just feel there's more to Liz's murder than meets the eye nowadays.

[Izzy]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

As to the darkness of Dutfield's Yard, it's worth noting that it was probably no darker - indeed, probably less so - than Mitre Square, where Jack mutilated Eddowes to what was, until then, an unprecedented extent, and in a comparatively short space of time.

Although your suggestion is good thinking, the things you mention above are also applicable to Buck's Row, where Nichols was murdered.

I agree that if it turns out that the passageway into Dutfields yard was no more dark than Mitre Square or Buck's Row, then one can hardly blame the lighting conditions for the lack of mutilation on Strides body.

Concerning Mitre Square, I am under the impression that it was fairly dark where Eddowes was slain but not quite as dark as the passageway into Dutfields yard. From what I understand there were 2 lamps on Mitre Square which should be able to provide at least some illumination, even though the murder was committed in the darkest corner.

Buck's Row, on the other hand, is a compelling counter argument to my thesis. From what I understand the conditions there were very dark indeed and at the same time presented no problem for good ol' Jack. Martha Tabram also comes to mind, although her injuries were of a slightly different nature than later victims (if indeed she was a Ripper victim at all).

Taking all this into account I must conclude that the lack of mutilation on the body of Liz Stride most probably was not a result of poor lighting conditions, but caused by some other factor.

I'm just reading Dave Yost's new book, Elizabeth Stride and JtR

Sounds interesting, I'll check it out.

[FrankO]

Being able to hear the pony wouldn't have meant that the killer knew the cart's intended destination. He could have been watching it, waiting to see where it went...

Exactly, Dan. Whenever he heard the cart & pony, he could have waited to see what would happen. On the other hand, if the cart would turn into the yard, he knew there was no chance in hell he would get to the part that seems to have made him tick: the mutilations. Furthermore, he must not have acted too suspiciously right until the moment he struck (no alarm, no physical signs of a struggle). Or, in other words, there was no reason to kill on account of him having done anything incriminating yet. That's why I think he probably wasn't interrupted by Diemshutz.

All the best,
Frank

[Dan Norder]

Being able to hear the pony wouldn't have meant that the killer knew the cart's intended destination. He could have been watching it, waiting to see where it went... or he could have already ran off after killing Stride because Schwartz had spotted him (if he did) or at some other interruption. Trying to say what the killer did or did not do based upon such limited information is just guess work at best.

[KatBradshaw]

Thats a very good point Mac!! I am sure that the killer would have heard the horse. That being said he would not have known that the killer was going in to the yard that he was in. Also the killer does seem to have struck in areas where he could easily have been discovered without worry.

[c.d.]

Anyone that has worked with horses or ponies will tell you that, if shod, they can be heard 'clip clopping' along cobbles from a great distance. Was the killer disturbed at all? Or did he hear the pony and cart coming with ample time to make his exit? The level of noise in the streets in 1888 would have been significantly lower than today. Especially after markets had closed, most people would have been indoors.

I don't believe there is a single chance that the killer was 'surprised' by the pony and cart. He would have had plenty of time to mutilate and make his escape.

Hi Mac,

Why are we assuming that there were no other disturbances besides the pony and cart? Consider the venue. Jack should have been able to see the lights from the club and hear the singing inside. I would imagine that would make him quite edgy in and of itself. There was also a privy outside, I believe. Is it unreasonable to assume that someone might have come outside to use the privy or simply for a breath of fresh air? What if two people left the club at the same time and stood outside to talk for a few minutes before departing? There are any number of reasons that Jack could have been disturbed. If he had to duck back into the shadows for any length of time, I can see him thinking this is a bad business, why take a chance when there are other potential victims about. Just move on to the next one which is what I believe he did.

c.d.

[mac-the-kipper]

Anyone that has worked with horses or ponies will tell you that, if shod, they can be heard 'clip clopping' along cobbles from a great distance. Was the killer disturbed at all? Or did he hear the pony and cart coming with ample time to make his exit? The level of noise in the streets in 1888 would have been significantly lower than today. Especially after markets had closed, most people would have been indoors.

I don't believe there is a single chance that the killer was 'surprised' by the pony and cart. He would have had plenty of time to mutilate and make his escape.

[Elias]

The only way to have made worthy decisions about those things would have been to view the yard that very night.

Maybe, but at the very least to attack right next to a fairly busy club, at an earlier time, shows a big difference in the other attacks. Also the number of witness around the yard that night, whether they saw Jack or not, shows that it was relatively well populated around the time of the attack.

Again the more I think about this attack, the more I think he was lucky, and that had he not been led into more secluded places by the other victims, he would've attacked them anywhere, regardless of how vulnerable he was.

Cheers.

[FrankO]

I am wondering if it is at all possible to mutilate someone ripper-fashion under those circumstances. For example, at first Diemschutz had no idea that there was a body blocking the way. And I believe (but could be mistaken, please correct me in that case) the extent of the injuries to the throat was discovered first when a policeman shone a flashlight on the body.

Hi Izzy,

First of all, welcome aboard!

Although your suggestion is good thinking, the things you mention above are also applicable to Buck's Row, where Nichols was murdered. It was so dark there that the first man to enter the scene after the Ripper left, Charles Cross, at first he thought Nichols' body was a tarpaulin. Even when he was joined by Robert Paul, the couple didn't notice that the woman's throat was cut. Later PC Neil could only see that with the help of his bullseye. We know that Nichols' abdomen were mutilated, although not completely opened so that he could take any organs. But it seems that he was able to mutilate, even though lighting conditions were quite poor.

All the best,
Frank

[Mitch Rowe]

My gut instict is that Stride is a Ripper victim. But there's always a doubt in my mind about it, not because of the lack of mutilations, for me it's quite clear that he was disturbed, but it's that I always see Jack as a very 'clever' killer, aware of police movements and local geography etc which meant he was able to avoid detection, but attacking Stride where he did seems to point to an impulse killer, I just can't see how he ever thought he would have enough time to fulfill all his desires in such a relatively busy area at that time of night. This attack just seems to me so out of character when compared to the other attacks. The more I think about the Dutfield Yard attack, the more I think Jack was merely extremely lucky, nothing more. For me the only other explanation is that after a fairly long break, probably due to increased police presence, he was desperate for another kill and thus took bigger risks.

Well...JTR might have killed on impulse because Diemschutz arrived and he had to get out of there. We really have no idea how safe JTR might have considered Dutfields yard. It could have been there was a nice lighted area in an out of the way place in the yard. The only way to have made worthy decisions about those things would have been to view the yard that very night.

[Elias]

My gut instict is that Stride is a Ripper victim. But there's always a doubt in my mind about it, not because of the lack of mutilations, for me it's quite clear that he was disturbed, but it's that I always see Jack as a very 'clever' killer, aware of police movements and local geography etc which meant he was able to avoid detection, but attacking Stride where he did seems to point to an impulse killer, I just can't see how he ever thought he would have enough time to fulfill all his desires in such a relatively busy area at that time of night. This attack just seems to me so out of character when compared to the other attacks. The more I think about the Dutfield Yard attack, the more I think Jack was merely extremely lucky, nothing more. For me the only other explanation is that after a fairly long break, probably due to increased police presence, he was desperate for another kill and thus took bigger risks.

[The Grave Maurice]

Welcome Izzy,

I wish my English were as good as what yours is, mate.

I'm just reading Dave Yost's new book, Elizabeth Stride and JtR, and he emphasizes how dark it was in Dutfield's Yard. The passageway that led to the rear of the yard was, apparently, only about three metres wide. That, combined with the height of the IWEC, and no near-by artificial lighting, would have made it very dark indeed. Mitre Square, because of its size, might have admitted a tad more ambient light.

So you could be on to something, although I think I still tend to go with what is probably now the old-school theory that the killer was simply interrupted by the arrival of Diemshutz and his pony.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Izzy, and welcome.

As to the darkness of Dutfield's Yard, it's worth noting that it was probably no darker - indeed, probably less so - than Mitre Square, where Jack mutilated Eddowes to what was, until then, an unprecedented extent, and in a comparatively short space of time.