What makes her such a likely candidate?

[The Good Michael]

There is no obvious connection of these murders by their proximity, their locale, the timing, the wounds or the witnessed suspects.

Michael,

I will agree with you on this. There is not one obvious thing. There are a few things that can at least bring it to the 50/50 mark.

1. Area: All the murders, including Stride's were committed withing a short enough range of each other that each particular site may still have been in the killer's zone of comfort.

2. Witnesses: As with the others, no one saw a murder committed, or no one came forward with such information.

3. Weapon: A knife was used and the same area of the body was attacked to produce the death stroke, namely, the throat. This indicates to me that the rapid incapacitation of the victim was essential to the killer. Stride is no different in this regard.

4. Prostitution: Same

Other things which I feel, if considered, might raise the canonical level higher

1. Stride was a Gentile: I find it odd that there are so many (though, arguably tenous) Jewish connections in a very heavily Jewish-populated part of London, yet none of the victims had any Jewish connections that we can tell aside from one of them doing some maid service for a Jewish family. A Jewish connection is conspicuous by its absense in my opinion. I should think at least one victim would have been Jewish. No

2. The position of the body: Her legs were drawn up. This indicates to me that the killer was positioning her for some post-murder surgery, but never got around to this. This point is, of course arguable, but it's what is suggested to me.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi perry,

Surely the obvious difference between Stride and other victims like Tabram is that a mutilated body wasn't found close by soon after their deaths.

Hi Em,

To be fair, "Close by" is not exactly accurate, and the second victim is not even found in the East End where all the other victims were. And "Soon after" is actually 45 minutes later. There is no obvious connection of these murders by their proximity, their locale, the timing, the wounds or the witnessed suspects.

Broadshouldered Man is suspect # 1 for Liz's killer in my book at least, he has access, they are alone in that location, and he is seen accosting her shortly before she is found dead. If we are comparing apples and oranges, Martha has more similarity to the the type of savagery the killer is known for than Liz has. I think you made a great point illustrating that there are non-Canonicals that fit the known profile of the killer better than Liz, and yet, being outside of that roughly 3 month rein of terror, they have been designated as merely unsolved murders. That Liz was a street whore, out after midnight, potentially soliciting,....(a claim that has no substantiation)...and killed by knife during that 3 month period, is I feel the criteria for her inclusion. Hardly a smoking gun.

All the best.

[QUOTE=c.d.;37329]

Hi Em,

In simple terms, there is no sound argument that explains the inclusion of Liz Stride among the Ripper victims.

Say what???? Do you just ignore any arguments to the contrary?

c.d.

Yes,... my astonished friend. She is the only victim seen being assaulted just before her death, and when Schwartz and Pipeman leave, only BSM and Liz are known to be near that area at all. The yard was empty by the testimony of members. BSM is not very likely Jack....and I dont think that Jack just materializes. And Liz was simply killed. No signs of any further intent....as in no obvious interest in savaging her afterward, or that it was "interrupted". Liz is not in my Canonical dance troupe.

Best regards cd.

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi! I was just wondering if someone could clear something up for a newbie like me. What clue and/or method of deduction makes Liz Stride such a likely candidate of being a Ripper victim that wasn't mutilated because the killer was sacred off? Because so far, aside from the brutal murder of Catherine Eddows an hour later, she looks to me about as likely (or unlikely) of being a Jack the Ripper victim as Frances Coles or, say, Alice McKenzie. So, what piece of information about Elizabeth Stride's murder am I missing here?

Hi Emlodik

Very good questions especially as regards McKenzie and Coles. If JTR wasn't caught then they have to be his possible victims. Prominent experts are lining up here to say that this or that police official said on this or that date that JTR wasn't caught so therefore he wasn't caught. Yet when one of these same police officials (Anderson) states that he WAS caught, he is lambasted for his idiocy. Ask yourself this simple question. If JTR was never caught, how on earth could Macnaghton confidently state that JTR had five victims only? Ripperology sounds scientific but it's often more like the Pick and Mix counter in Woolworths to my mind.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=perrymason;37315]Hi Em,

In simple terms, there is no sound argument that explains the inclusion of Liz Stride among the Ripper victims.

Say what???? Do you just ignore any arguments to the contrary?

c.d.

[Elias]

She is included because she was killed with a knife, at night, and she was a street whore. Odd though......if Martha Tabram wasnt killed by Jack, and the Torso's werent created by Jack, and the other murders you mention among others werent thought to be Jack...including the far more logical "Jack" type victims with matching wound patterns to some of the Canonicals......funny why this "Jack" is assumed to be the only knife killer of women at night during that period of time.


Best regards.

Hi perry,

Surely the obvious difference between Stride and other victims like Tabram is that a mutilated body wasn't found close by soon after their deaths.

Hi! I was just wondering if someone could clear something up for a newbie like me. What clue and/or method of deduction makes Liz Stride such a likely candidate of being a Ripper victim that wasn't mutilated because the killer was sacred off? Because so far, aside from the brutal murder of Catherine Eddows an hour later, she looks to me about as likely (or unlikely) of being a Jack the Ripper victim as Frances Coles or, say, Alice McKenzie. So, what piece of information about Elizabeth Stride's murder am I missing here?

Hi Em,

In simple terms, there is no sound argument that explains the inclusion of Liz Stride among the Ripper victims. She was seen being assaulted minutes before her death by someone who is hardly "The Ripper", the yard was testified as empty minutes before her assault....making Jack hiding in the yard pure supposition, she had a single death cut and there is no evidence........NONE....that indicated her killer started, was about to start, initiated, commenced, or altered her body position in order to commit the trademark post mortem mutilations.

She is included because she was killed with a knife, at night, and she was a street whore. Odd though......if Martha Tabram wasnt killed by Jack, and the Torso's werent created by Jack, and the other murders you mention among others werent thought to be Jack...including the far more logical "Jack" type victims with matching wound patterns to some of the Canonicals......funny why this "Jack" is assumed to be the only knife killer of women at night during that period of time.

Jack...or the killer they called Jack, mutilated post mortem. Liz wasnt.

Best regards.

[FrankO]

But I still think an ordinary local would have chosen lighted areas instinctively,for any sort of task that required some sort of concentration.

Hi Anna!

It seems that the women the Ripper chose were prostituting themselves on the nights they were killed. It was quite customary that the women did the accosting and the choosing of the spot for doing business. As prostitution wasn’t legal, these spots would logically be rather secluded, dark and/or quiet spots. So, the Ripper probably just didn’t have much of a choice. I believe he went with the cards that opportunity dealt him.

A local "ordinary" person I would think would also have fled the scenes after killing the women..hanging around to mutilate would be far too risky to these simple folk.Killing = scarper before your'e caught,don't hang around.Are we really to believe someone with this sort of mindset...that would have been very strongly ingrained in them,in everyday life..hangs around to cut women in a way that would have meant having to spend time and do things that would equal the noose,and out in an open location where other locals might pass by.

The fact that the Ripper took time to mutilate his victims’ abdomen doesn’t tell us anything about whether the Ripper was local or not. What you say would be equally true for non-locals. They would equally risk the noose by staying on the scene mutilating. What it does tell us is that the mutilations were of major importance to the Ripper, or else indeed he would have fled the scene after cutting the throat.

Simple folk,simple deeds.

The way I see it is that, besides lucky, the Ripper was quite practical & to-the-point and that he doesn't seem to have made intricate plans to achieve his goals/satisfy his dark needs. So, in that sense I think his deeds were actaully rather simple.

All the best,
Frank

[mac-the-kipper]

Depends who you are and what they are about. Is this even Stride related or are you just jumping over from a Sept. 17th hoax letter thread to try to continue that argument some more?

You asked me for my notes a couple of years ago. I'm about to bin them to make room in my bookcase.

[Dan Norder]

Would you still want my research notes from 1988?

Depends who you are and what they are about. Is this even Stride related or are you just jumping over from a Sept. 17th hoax letter thread to try to continue that argument some more?

[anna]

Thanks for the reply Fisherman!
You have intrigued me,with your ideas on Stride...

Regards,
ANNA.

[mac-the-kipper]

Being able to hear the pony wouldn't have meant that the killer knew the cart's intended destination. He could have been watching it, waiting to see where it went... or he could have already ran off after killing Stride because Schwartz had spotted him (if he did) or at some other interruption. Trying to say what the killer did or did not do based upon such limited information is just guess work at best.

Err, righto Dan............err just exactly as you have here?
Would you still want my research notes from 1988?

[Fisherman]

I think, Anna, that they were extremely alerted to the fact that the Ripper was on the loose. But there are no other slayings of East End prostitutes inbetween Chapman and Stride, meaning that much as they could and would have asked all other people involved in violent incidents about these eruptions of violence, they simply could not question a dead woman in the same manner.
A cut throat, a dead prostituted woman, an East End offence - those ingredients together with Strides´ silence, mean that it would have resembled miscarriage of justice if they had NOT followed up on the possible lead that it was the Rippers work.

The best, Anna!
Fisherman

[anna]

Just to finish off my posts...
Somebody also added in this thread that it is also likely people saw but kept their mouths shut.
I agree with this most strongly.
We have Sam,who tells us that this area was heavily populated.We seem to see few people out on the streets when reports of witnesses are around.Probably because everyone else who saw,has had the sense to scarper.
I would think many saw things,lots of chatter revealed plenty,probably who Jack was...but think of it this way..
If you lived in those times,and you said what you saw...that might be told to someone else,and like disease it would spread....they didn't know who was friend or foe...who was even friend of Jack..
Would you have risked your own safety by telling...No.
Hence the reason why when Kelly was killed..I would think all those who spoke out like Prater,would have known full well where the cry of "murder" came from...they knew where to listen for Kelly...
Everybody is keeping their mouths shut.
All are just my opinion...with some past thoughts mixed in to add to the topic.

[anna]

Hi Fisherman,
With the fact in mind that the police would have seen a lady lying peacefully on her side with a cut to the throat..etc...
Would they not have witness more violent scenes in the days between Chapman and Stride amongst the ordinary folk of Whitechapel...much more inclined to be dragged into JTR than Liz.....
Nicolls and Chapman's murders were more violent than Liz.....so I would have thought if they found any other women with cuts and violence in the days between Chapman and Liz,they would have been reported as JTR maybe's in the papers?