A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match

[mickreed]

from: This News Article

Well I've just finished reading the book and I have to say that apart from the DNA 'evidence' the rest is just supposition. I REALLY wanted to believe and I really think RE had the best of intentions. He's spend lots of his own money in his pursuit of the answer. He's just gone about it the wrong way. He's not unbiased. he had an agenda (conscious or unconscious) and I think he tottered along dismissing the things that didn't fit while hanging on to the things that boosted his argument and slotted in with his suspect.

Hi Richardh.

Indeed, there is nothing in the book beyond the DNA that goes beyond supposition, and (possibly unintentional) building mountains out of mole hills. I've said repeatedly that it is a rather silly piece of work.

I can't imagine how anyone could spend 750,000 quid on research for this, or why anyone would want to, but if true, then it does ertainly provide a motive for wanting to get something back.

I always knew that the main claim of the book was not real. The best that could ever have been claimed, even if an irrefutable Kosminski and Eddowes link was made via DNA (and that could never be), was that there was some sort of connection between the two people. Sure, it would have made the liklihood of AK's guilt more likely, but it would never have proved it.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

If he can then he needs to - quickly. What is certain, I think, is that he can only do so with data that are not in the book.

...

Silence will not be golden in this case.

Who owns the data Mick? He had a budget from RE and/or the publisher. Do they own it?

cheers, gryff

[mickreed]

Who owns the data Mick? He had a budget from RE and/or the publisher. Do they own it?

cheers, gryff

Don't know, Gryff.

[mickreed]

Seriously though as mentioned I do wonder why he isn't, surely he must realise the longer it takes the worse it will probably be. it isn't something that is going to go away anymore.

G'day Trace.

It's still only been one working day since this broke. Who knows what he had on at work. Lectures, meetings, whatever. He may also have commitments to one or more of the 17 documentary makers

In his shoes, I'd be checking like buggery, and working out how best to limit damage to my non-Ripper credentials. Better wait a couple of days to try and get that right.

He must say something. I'd reckon 72 hours max, so Wednesday, would be manageable. Anything more and he has really had it, I'd reckon.

[RockySullivan]

It has only been one day since the news broke to the world mick, but it's been posted here for weeks. Who actually made the discovery About the error I'm curious to know was it Chris, tj1? I know they both played a role in spreading the info and I really respect and applaud them.

[mickreed]

It has only been one day since the news broke to the world mick, but it's been posted here for weeks. Who actually made the discovery About the error I'm curious to know was it Chris, tj1? I know they both played a role in spreading the info and I really respect and applaud them.

Indeed Rocky, and at least two people (I was one) tried to alert JL to this discussion, to no avail.

The press have forced the issue and made it impossible, surely, to ignore. But yes, you heard it on Casebook first.

Tracy and me both found, independently, a reference to the 'error of nomenclature'. I didn't know what it meant. Fortunately Chris was more tenacious and nailed it, as you say, a good while back now.

Applause richly deserved.

[mickreed]

The Kosminski match, to my mind was never, even remotely, convincing. A match of some sort with an unidentified descendent apparently they belonged to the same haplogroup T1a1 which was said to be 'typical' of East European Jews, when in fact it's not at all typical, being held by well under 5% of that population.

It is however a common enough haplogroup in other populations. Not at all rare generally, but rarer in East European Jews. It was another case of a straw house built on sand.

It seems like a lifetime ago, but initially Debs, Fish, myself and others thought that was the real weak spot in RE's case.

Back to AK and T1a1. I just found this quote relevant to RE's claim that T1a1 is typical of Jews.

Anyway to sum up from my microcosmic viewpoint, T1a1 is rare but present among Jews, but not known previously to me in central Poland, but much farther south and west. The flight west of Jews after the Chmielnitzki massacres of 1648/9 certainly reached the area of modern Poland, so it may not be be so surprising. But was Kozminski T1a1 or T1a1j? Presumably he did not have A8530G if he described only as T1a1. If he was T1a1j it one could stretch the truth and say it is a common haplogroup among Jews, at least as common as among non-Jewish members of the haplogroup, but that would not apply to T1a1.

http://dna-explained.com/2014/09/08/jack-the-ripper/

Unless the data for this are also released by JL/RE, then no real progress can be made on this front either.

[mickreed]

Back to AK and T1a1.

Unless the data for this are also released by JL/RE, then no real progress can be made on this front either.

Do we need a thread to sort out the AK 'match'?

Insufficient data I suspect. The book has virtually nothing. Maybe the Independent could get on to this aspect of the case.

[Chris]

Back to AK and T1a1. I just found this quote relevant to RE's claim that T1a1 is typical of Jews.

Anyway to sum up from my microcosmic viewpoint, T1a1 is rare but present among Jews, but not known previously to me in central Poland, but much farther south and west. The flight west of Jews after the Chmielnitzki massacres of 1648/9 certainly reached the area of modern Poland, so it may not be be so surprising. But was Kozminski T1a1 or T1a1j? Presumably he did not have A8530G if he described only as T1a1. If he was T1a1j it one could stretch the truth and say it is a common haplogroup among Jews, at least as common as among non-Jewish members of the haplogroup, but that would not apply to T1a1.

http://dna-explained.com/2014/09/08/jack-the-ripper/

Unless the data for this are also released by JL/RE, then no real progress can be made on this front either.

Yes - the T1a1 haplogroup was based on some kind of match with a database (from the description, it sounds like GenBank - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genbank ), but we're not told what was matched. It may have been only a small segment of DNA, as for the "Eddowes" match.

It would be surprising if he had measured anything at position 8530, because we are told that the "Eddowes" sequencing was limited to parts of the two "hypervariable regions", which aren't anywhere near the 8000s.

[Monty]

The games afoot...

....According to Dr Jari's twitter account, he has conducted two interviews today, and is currently at the BBCs media city in Salford.

It seems something may be happening.

Monty

[Caligo Umbrator]

Back to AK and T1a1. I just found this quote relevant to RE's claim that T1a1 is typical of Jews.

Anyway to sum up from my microcosmic viewpoint, T1a1 is rare but present among Jews, but not known previously to me in central Poland, but much farther south and west. The flight west of Jews after the Chmielnitzki massacres of 1648/9 certainly reached the area of modern Poland, so it may not be be so surprising. But was Kozminski T1a1 or T1a1j? Presumably he did not have A8530G if he described only as T1a1. If he was T1a1j it one could stretch the truth and say it is a common haplogroup among Jews, at least as common as among non-Jewish members of the haplogroup, but that would not apply to T1a1.

http://dna-explained.com/2014/09/08/jack-the-ripper/

Unless the data for this are also released by JL/RE, then no real progress can be made on this front either.

Hi Mickreed,
I happened upon the same article last night.
Reading it made me go back to the book and research a few items I found there.
If I read it correctly ( pages 285-292 ) the T1a1 haplotype/group that 'suspect AK' was placed into, derived from a cell sample found on the shawl that was enhanced using whole genome amplification, which could mean they obtained a full DNA as well as an mDNA sequence.
It looks as if the 'hit' they obtained from the NCBI database in Bethesda was using the mDNA haplotype.
I'll admit to being uneducated in these matters but is the T1a1 classification somewhat different, depending on whether its derived from DNA or mDNA?
I'm looking through the NCBI database to see if I can discover the sequence he is likely to have matched with.

Yours, Caligo.

[Chris]

....According to Dr Jari's twitter account, he has conducted two interviews today, and is currently at the BBCs media city in Salford.

Am I the only one who finds the tone of those tweets bizarre, considering the circumstances?

[Monty]

Am I the only one who finds the tone of those tweets bizarre, considering the circumstances?

There seems to be a reveling in the media fame.

Monty

[Caligo Umbrator]

Am I the only one who finds the tone of those tweets bizarre, considering the circumstances?

Hi Chris.

Maybe the cheese tweet is very telling - Dilemma - " Aged for 7 years - molds in your fridge after a week"



Yours, Caligo

[Chris]

If I read it correctly ( pages 285-292 ) the T1a1 haplotype/group that 'suspect AK' was placed into, derived from a cell sample found on the shawl that was enhanced using whole genome amplification, which could mean they obtained a full DNA as well as an mDNA sequence.
It looks as if the 'hit' they obtained from the NCBI database in Bethesda was using the mDNA haplotype.
I'll admit to being uneducated in these matters but is the T1a1 classification somewhat different, depending on whether its derived from DNA or mDNA?
I'm looking through the NCBI database to see if I can discover the sequence he is likely to have matched with.

Yes, certainly the book says it was a mtDNA haplogroup. And in that case it would share no more than its name with the Y-DNA haplogroup T1a1.

I must admit it didn't occur to me to try to identify the sequence, but as we know from the book it was submitted in or around May, is T1a1 and had ethnicity "Russian", it may indeed be feasible!