September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Scott. I believe Marsh described him as faux-clerical? William Marshall did not see Stride with her killer. As for Stride, I'm not convinced her killer was interrupted. It's certainly possible. But I don't like coincidences and don't put too much faith in them. And it's too coincidental that in the hours following Annie Chapman's murder there were unfounded rumors of a second murder, an allegedly bloody rag two yards away, and chalk writing on the wall from the killer. All of these proved to be false or irrelevant, but then magically happened right after the inquests into Nichols and Chapman had wrapped up.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Thanks for the kind word about my books.

hi tom
marshall didnt see stride with her killer? do you mean brown? ive always thought your opinion was that browns couple was not stride but marshalls couple was stride and her killer?

[Tom_Wescott]

hi tom
marshall didnt see stride with her killer? do you mean brown? ive always thought your opinion was that browns couple was not stride but marshalls couple was stride and her killer?

Hi Abby. Emily Marsh is the young girl whom a tall man in clerical dress (IIRC) asked for Lusk's address just prior to Lusk's receipt of the kidney/letter. He has nothing to do with the Stride murder but Scott brought him up as being a 'clerk' and that's not how I recall the description.

As for Brown vs Marshall, you're misinformed about my opinion. In Ripper Confidential I provide contemporary sourcing showing that James Brown saw a woman he believed was Stride with a man AFTER Schwartz had left the scene. Not at 12:45 as reported in every single book before and after mine. Effectively, Brown was the last person to see Stride alive. Marshall occurred much earlier, rendering his evidence worthless except that it tells us where Stride was around a particular time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby. Emily Marsh is the young girl whom a tall man in clerical dress (IIRC) asked for Lusk's address just prior to Lusk's receipt of the kidney/letter. He has nothing to do with the Stride murder but Scott brought him up as being a 'clerk' and that's not how I recall the description.

As for Brown vs Marshall, you're misinformed about my opinion. In Ripper Confidential I provide contemporary sourcing showing that James Brown saw a woman he believed was Stride with a man AFTER Schwartz had left the scene. Not at 12:45 as reported in every single book before and after mine. Effectively, Brown was the last person to see Stride alive. Marshall occurred much earlier, rendering his evidence worthless except that it tells us where Stride was around a particular time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

ok thanks got it!

[JeffHamm]

Hi Abby. Emily Marsh is the young girl whom a tall man in clerical dress (IIRC) asked for Lusk's address just prior to Lusk's receipt of the kidney/letter. He has nothing to do with the Stride murder but Scott brought him up as being a 'clerk' and that's not how I recall the description.

As for Brown vs Marshall, you're misinformed about my opinion. In Ripper Confidential I provide contemporary sourcing showing that James Brown saw a woman he believed was Stride with a man AFTER Schwartz had left the scene. Not at 12:45 as reported in every single book before and after mine. Effectively, Brown was the last person to see Stride alive. Marshall occurred much earlier, rendering his evidence worthless except that it tells us where Stride was around a particular time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I've just grabbed the inquest testimony of James Brown (as found under the official documents section of Casebook), which is from the Daily Telegraph I believe. I've bolded and underlined a few bits that I wanted to comment upon:

James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.
The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.
[Coroner] Did you see enough to make you certain that the deceased was the woman? - I am almost certain.
[Coroner] Did you notice any flower in her dress? - No.
[Coroner] What were they doing? - He was standing with his arm against the wall; she was inclined towards his arm, facing him, and with her back to the wall.
[Coroner] Did you notice the man? - I saw that he had a long dark coat on.
[Coroner] An overcoat? - Yes; it seemed so.
[Coroner] Had he a hat or a cap on? - I cannot say.
[Coroner] You are sure it was not her dress that you chiefly noticed? - Yes. I saw nothing light in colour about either of them.
[Coroner] Was it raining at the time? - No. I went on.
[Coroner] Did you hear anything more? - When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. I did not look at any clock at the chandler's shop. I arrived home first at ten minutes past twelve o'clock, and I believe it was not raining then.
[Coroner] Did you notice the height of the man? - I should think he was 5ft. 7in.
[Coroner] Was he thin or stout? - He was of average build.
[Coroner] Did either of them seem the worse for drink? - No.
[Coroner] Did you notice whether either spoke with a foreign accent? - I did not notice any. When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian- street, and a man called him to Berner-street.

Schwartz apparently says he witnessed B.S. and Pipeman around 12:45, which corresponds to when James Brown says he saw his couple as well. Clearly, the two events cannot have happened at the same time, but we know that everybody involved is estimating from memory what the time was, so discrepancies like this are hardly surprising.

However, Brown's 2nd underlined statement, combined with his first one, reads to me that his sighting occurs on his way home (... I then went home, when I saw a man and woman ...), with the first statement placing that sighting around 12:45.

In the 3rd underlined/bolded bit, he says that a quarter hour after he got home (which was just down the street, so very close to 12:45 when he gets home) he hears people yelling, etc. This fits well with Deimshitz's testimony of finding the body at 1, followed a few minutes later by the men running off to find police along Fairclough. That is further supported by the 4th bit, as Diemshitz and the men state they ran to the end of the street, before heading back and picking up Spooner. I think the "policeman" that Brown mentions must, in fact, be Spooner, so Brown mis-identifies Spooner as a polieman, which is an understandable error under the circumstances.

I find Brown's statements to fit so well with independent testimony, that I think he's pretty reasonable with respect to the time aspects. But I don't see how anything he testifies allows us to then decide if Schwartz must have witnessed things before or after Brown spots his couple? Meaning, if Schwartz has his "12:45" out by 5 to 10 minutes, then the events Schwartz describe could very well occur after Brown's sighting. On the other hand, the Schwartz event could have occurred before Brown's sighting, although then it starts to clash with Fanny Mortimer (but her statements being all over the show, that might not be possible to avoid), and we have the PC sighting on Berner Street as well.

I'm just curious as to what information we have that allows us to order things Schwartz -> Brown as opposed to Brown -> Schwartz? While even what I've described above does allow for either, there seems a much smaller window of opportunity for the Schwartz -> Brown (it would almost suggest the Schwartz incident occurs in the 3-4 minutes Brown is in the chander's shop, though I accept that's not necessary - but it would have to be before Brown leaves home in the first place otherwise - further narrowing the window on that side of things).

Anyway, I'm not trying to imply that what you're suggesting is impossible, rather just wondering what information I'm missing? Thanks.

- Jeff

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Tom,

I've just grabbed the inquest testimony of James Brown (as found under the official documents section of Casebook), which is from the Daily Telegraph I believe. I've bolded and underlined a few bits that I wanted to comment upon:

James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.
The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.
[Coroner] Did you see enough to make you certain that the deceased was the woman? - I am almost certain.
[Coroner] Did you notice any flower in her dress? - No.
[Coroner] What were they doing? - He was standing with his arm against the wall; she was inclined towards his arm, facing him, and with her back to the wall.
[Coroner] Did you notice the man? - I saw that he had a long dark coat on.
[Coroner] An overcoat? - Yes; it seemed so.
[Coroner] Had he a hat or a cap on? - I cannot say.
[Coroner] You are sure it was not her dress that you chiefly noticed? - Yes. I saw nothing light in colour about either of them.
[Coroner] Was it raining at the time? - No. I went on.
[Coroner] Did you hear anything more? - When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. I did not look at any clock at the chandler's shop. I arrived home first at ten minutes past twelve o'clock, and I believe it was not raining then.
[Coroner] Did you notice the height of the man? - I should think he was 5ft. 7in.
[Coroner] Was he thin or stout? - He was of average build.
[Coroner] Did either of them seem the worse for drink? - No.
[Coroner] Did you notice whether either spoke with a foreign accent? - I did not notice any. When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian- street, and a man called him to Berner-street.

Schwartz apparently says he witnessed B.S. and Pipeman around 12:45, which corresponds to when James Brown says he saw his couple as well. Clearly, the two events cannot have happened at the same time, but we know that everybody involved is estimating from memory what the time was, so discrepancies like this are hardly surprising.

However, Brown's 2nd underlined statement, combined with his first one, reads to me that his sighting occurs on his way home (... I then went home, when I saw a man and woman ...), with the first statement placing that sighting around 12:45.

In the 3rd underlined/bolded bit, he says that a quarter hour after he got home (which was just down the street, so very close to 12:45 when he gets home) he hears people yelling, etc. This fits well with Deimshitz's testimony of finding the body at 1, followed a few minutes later by the men running off to find police along Fairclough. That is further supported by the 4th bit, as Diemshitz and the men state they ran to the end of the street, before heading back and picking up Spooner. I think the "policeman" that Brown mentions must, in fact, be Spooner, so Brown mis-identifies Spooner as a polieman, which is an understandable error under the circumstances.

I find Brown's statements to fit so well with independent testimony, that I think he's pretty reasonable with respect to the time aspects. But I don't see how anything he testifies allows us to then decide if Schwartz must have witnessed things before or after Brown spots his couple? Meaning, if Schwartz has his "12:45" out by 5 to 10 minutes, then the events Schwartz describe could very well occur after Brown's sighting. On the other hand, the Schwartz event could have occurred before Brown's sighting, although then it starts to clash with Fanny Mortimer (but her statements being all over the show, that might not be possible to avoid), and we have the PC sighting on Berner Street as well.

I'm just curious as to what information we have that allows us to order things Schwartz -> Brown as opposed to Brown -> Schwartz? While even what I've described above does allow for either, there seems a much smaller window of opportunity for the Schwartz -> Brown (it would almost suggest the Schwartz incident occurs in the 3-4 minutes Brown is in the chander's shop, though I accept that's not necessary - but it would have to be before Brown leaves home in the first place otherwise - further narrowing the window on that side of things).

Anyway, I'm not trying to imply that what you're suggesting is impossible, rather just wondering what information I'm missing? Thanks.

- Jeff

An absolutely brilliant post indeed.

I always love reading what purpose have to say Jeff, as it's always so though out and analysed beautifully.

I think you're pretty much spot on with the above.


The only thing I would add would be the option that the Schwartz incident never actually happened.

An unpopular claim, but I have yet to see anyone run the course of events but omitting the Schwartz event completely.

I have tried it, and it's odd that when omitting Schwartz, Bs man, Pipeman, the shout of Lipski etc... it suddenly makes everything else fit into place...

and ultimately changes nothing except explain all the other anomalies of that particular event.

It feels rather liberating to remove the Schwartz event, but I find that most are scared to event attempt it.