Cleveland Street Scandal Connection?

[Sam Flynn]

1871 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with TC Sr. and Kate Conway)
1881 Census-71 Lower George Road, Chelsea (living with Father TC Sr.)
1891 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with Thomas Kelly)
1901 Census-St Margaret and St John (living with Father TC Sr.)

So it seems to me, this Thomas Conway, was very near Cleveland Street his entire life.

Depends what you mean by "very" near, JD. Borough Road is in Southwark, the other side of the Thames from Cleveland St. Lower George Rd (just off Sloane Square) was at least North of the River, but is still about 3 miles away from where all the action was in 1889. Whilst I wouldn't classify that as "very near", there's no doubt that yer man was in London at the right time... question is, how many other eligible TC's were there?

[jerryd]

I may have made a mistake with the 1901 entry. I am not 100% sure that was our guy. Isn't this area Westminster Abbey?

Edit: Well the birth place shows Westminster for this guy so maybe I jumped the gun on this post. Sorry for the confusion.

Now the questions for you geographers. Isn't St. Margarets where Parliament, Westminster Abbey etc are? If so, Why would Thomas Conway and sons move to such a prominent area of London? Look at who was involved in the Cleveland Street Scandal. Wouldn't those individuals either reside or work in this area also?

[Debra A]

Here is a quick Timeline:

Born: 1868- Westminster (to Thomas Conway and Catherine Conway)
1871 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with TC Sr. and Kate Conway)
1881 Census-71 Lower George Road, Chelsea (living with Father TC Sr.)
1891 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with Thomas Kelly)
1901 Census-St Margaret and St John (living with Father TC Sr.)

I am starting to think that TC Sr. may have had an alias of Thomas Kelly or the Census got his name wrong in 1891. I say this because Jr. seems to not stray too far for his dad his entire life and the entry with him living with Thomas Kelly is the same location of where he lived with Kate and Sr. as a child. Also, I find it interesting that Eddowes went by the name of Mary Ann Kelly. Did she assume the Kelly name when she was with John Kelly or before that? And last, at the inquest I remember someone questioning daughter Annie about the pension of Thomas Conway. They thought someone might be using his name to collect the pension. That struck me as odd.

So it seems to me, this Thomas Conway, was very near Cleveland Street his entire life.

LC, If you are referring to how that plays into the marriage of Mary Ann. I never put much if any weight into that being a reality. It would have been an interesting addition though.

Sam, Lots of Thomas Conways but only one that had a Ripper victim as a mother.

Jerry, nice article find!
Just a small point that I posted on JTRforums,-I counted at least 50 other lodgers besides Thomas Kelly living at the lodging house in 1891 where Thomas Conway was employed as night watchman and Kelly is a lodger. I don't see the significance in that case. He can't really be said to be living with ' Thomas Kelly' exclusively can he? It's a lodging house, Kelly is a common name they turn up everywhere!

I agree that because Eddowes son was living in Westminster area 1901 this is interesting and worth following up. I only came across one other Thomas Conway b c 1870 in Westminster in 1901 and he was born in Ireland.

[Debra A]

I may have made a mistake with the 1901 entry. I am not 100% sure that was our guy. Isn't this area Westminster Abbey?

It looks like them to me. 19 Parker St Westminster?

...that doesn't look far from Cleveland St on google earth (giving it a go, Lynn) to me.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, Lots of Thomas Conways but only one that had a Ripper victim as a mother.

Indeed, Jerry, but I don't see that this fact would have a bearing on whether he was connected to the Cleveland Street affair. It would be fascinating if he was, of course, and that's what we must prove. If it is true, then we have yet another spooky coincidence in the Eddowes case - the other being the connection between Arthur Pash (who sold Eddowes the boots), and Florence Pash (of Sickert and Royal Conspiracy fame).

[Debra A]

P.s. wasn't the address Lombard street, Southwark in 1891, not Borough Rd?

[jerryd]

Debs,

I am an armchair researcher. I am going off what I found at lds.org because it is free.

Borough Road is mentioned as the sub-district not the street. So you are probably correct in your research.

[Sam Flynn]

It looks like them to me. 19 Parker St Westminster?

...that doesn't look far from Cleveland St on google earth to me.

But wasn't that his address 12 years after the Cleveland St scandal, Debs? In 1891, he was back in the less salubrious Southwark by the looks of it.

Can you trace Thomas [Devas] Conway, of Wimbledon (see my earlier post)? His birthplace, and posh-looking middle name, might suggest a more direct association with Fitzrovian circles. Sorry to stereotype, and all that.

PS: I let my subscription to Ancestry lapse a couple of years back, otherwise I'd look him up myself

[Debra A]

According to the Morning Oregonia, Thursday, January 08, 1891, Ames claimed Thomas Conway moved to the East end of London and became a female impersonator.

[Debra A]

But wasn't that his address 12 years after the Cleveland St scandal, Debs? In 1891, he was back in the less salubrious Southwark by the looks of it.

Can you trace Thomas [Devas] Conway, of Wimbledon (see my earlier post)? His birthplace, and posh-looking middle name, might suggest a more direct association with Fitzrovian circles. Sorry to stereotype, and all that.

PS: I let my subscription to Ancestry lapse a couple of years back, otherwise I'd look him up myself

True, Gareth, but sometimes people go back to areas they
have known previously is what I was thinking.
I will look for the other guy and let you know. I'm wondering what the backgrounds of Hammond, Ames, Thickbroom etc. were like-weren't they working class?

[jerryd]

This is directly from the article I originally posted:

"When the "expose occurred, which caused the house to shut down, Hammond took me with him and went to Calais, and from there went to Paris. In Paris we stayed three weeks with Mrs. Hammond's sister, and then we went to Langley, France. At Langley, Hammend was met by Arthur Newton, the lawyer, who was acting In the interests of the visitors to the Cleveland-street house, and he wanted us tn go to America at once. On the following day two English detectives went to the French officers and hud Hammond expelled from the country. They told him to leave by noontime. "In July, 18S9, we left France and went to 15 lfast and then to Ualanzy, where we stayed three weeks. While in Halanzy, Newton, the lawyer, sent word to Hammond to go to Antwerp, where he would meet him and arrange the matter. We mit Newton at Brussels, and in a room in one of the hotels there, Newton asked Hammond what he would take to go to America. 1 was in the room at thn time, and Hammond told him that he would have to have £0000 to start with. The matter was finally compromised between them for £500. " We sailed under fictitious names on the steamer Penl.ind, for New York, and when we arrived there a man named Harris, who had been sent by Newton to see that we arrived all right, paid S-JOOO over to Hammond. Hammond cannot write, and since he has been here I have done that work for him. I have written loiters for him demanding money from the Karl of Button, and L rd Somerset, and Kobert Jervoico since we have been here, and within the past month 1 wrote and registered a letter to Jervoice demanding £100 for Hammond, who stated that he was in trouble. "Whether or net Hammond ever received any return I cannot positively state. While Hammond was running Uie Hay market Saloon I once asked him for money, He was very pleasant and offered me some whisky to drink, but 1 did not touch it as there was a substance in the bottom which luoktd like poison."

Sounds like he tried to 'do away with' Ames at one point with poison. Doesn't sound like too nice a guy. Also interesting that he couldn't write and had Ames send bribery letters to Lord Somerset et al.

[Debra A]

Thickbroom's father was a carpenter and the family lived in Islington.

[jerryd]

The Timeline for Mary Jane Kelly here on Casebook shows in 1884 she worked at a West end gay house and in the same year visited Paris with a gentleman.

Could that gentleman be Charles Hammond? He ran a west end gay house and had a sister he was known to visit in Paris. According to Ames, 1884 would have been about the time this brothel started.

When do coincidences become reality?

[Debra A]

Gareth- Thomas Devas Conway seems to have spent all his life in Surrey and died there in 1922. He married Mary Winifred Wrench in 1894.

[Sam Flynn]

When do coincidences become reality?

When someone called "Thickbroom" becomes a carpenter, and his son becomes a gay gigolo.