Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I have been arguing for about the last year that it is likely that the murderer left the square via Mitre Street, both because that would have afforded him the most logical route to Goulston Street and because it is unlikely that he would have followed Harvey, so to speak.

I have also argued that the reason Harvey did not see the couple from about 1.38 a.m. is that they had indeed moved on - to Mitre Square.

I asked the additional question: why did he not see them together after leaving Church Passage?

If one had murdered the other, that would certainly explain it.

I have also asked the question: if Watkins encountered the murderer after leaving Mitre Square, why did he not mention it to his superiors or at the inquest?

If no such encounter had occurred, that would certainly explain that too.

I agree with you on PC Watkins.

On whether or not you believe Lawende and associates saw the WM, it would depend on your conclusion with regard to the pivotal piece of information.

For me, the simplest solution and the pivotal piece of information, is that when PC Harvey began his walk down Church Passage with his lantern; the WM left via the closest exit, which of course means that Lawende's couple were not Catherine and the WM. That's the starting point for me because it is based upon researched human behaviour and that for me is of more importance than our speculation on who saw whom when.

In my view, the simplest and most reasonable solution is that's what happened and the reason PC Harvey didn't see the unrelated couple is because they'd moved on by the time he got there.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The problem with that line of thinking is that you'd have to believe that Catherine didn't know the area either. In the event one of them did, then the path of least effort is to walk in via Mitre Street, the shortest distance to the darkest part of the square, pass a few unoccupied buildings; in contrast to the north west part of the square with activity late at night, and back out again the way they came (or so they both thought).

I don't know whether you are suggesting that Eddowes did enter the square via Mitre Street, but what would be more natural than for a prostitute meeting a prospective client in Church Passage to suggest to him that they go into Mitre Square and walk straight ahead to the very part of the square where she was found?

Why indeed was she standing at the end of Church Passage unless she was planning to go with someone to the other end of it?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

For me, the simplest solution and the pivotal piece of information, is that when PC Harvey began his walk down Church Passage with his lantern; the WM left via the closest exit, which of course means that Lawende's couple were not Catherine and the WM.

Why does the fact that Mitre Street was the closest exit to the scene of the murder preclude the woman seen by Lawende having been Eddowes?

[Wickerman]

so if the couple lawende saw wasnt eddowes and the ripper, not only did he have to be mistaken and see a different couple, but he also just happened to mistakenly see the correct type of hat on the man. This is like the absurd reasoning on the other thread where everyone has to be incorrect in just the right way. insanity continues.

What makes the hat correct?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What makes the hat correct?

Both Eddowes and the woman seen by Lawende wore black bonnets.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Why does the fact that Mitre Street was the closest exit to the scene of the murder preclude the woman seen by Lawende having been Eddowes?

We're weighing up options, nothing is impossible nor precludes anything. It's a case of which of the options is most likely.

In the event you believe that Lawende and associates saw Catherine, then you have to believe that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage the WM decided to stay put.

That would not be in line with researched human behaviour and known concepts such as the principle of least effort which govern all human actions.

As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I think Lawende did see Eddowes and the murderer and that the murderer left the square when he sensed Harvey approaching.

I do not see why the murderer, if he was the man seen by Lawende, would have had to stay put.

I do not see why, if the murderer left on sensing Harvey's approach, he could not have been the man seen by Lawende.

[Trevor Marriott]

We're weighing up options, nothing is impossible nor precludes anything. It's a case of which of the options is most likely.

In the event you believe that Lawende and associates saw Catherine, then you have to believe that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage the WM decided to stay put.

That would not be in line with researched human behaviour and known concepts such as the principle of least effort which govern all human actions.

As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

If the killer was still with Eddowes when Harvey came down Church Passage shining his lamp the killer would have seen him coming and would have had time to make his exit via Mitre Street long before Harvey had any chance of seeing him.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Scott Nelson]

Hi Scott,

While I regard this as a viable alternative, the reservation I have with this hypothesis is that on the night in question Watkins was patrolling a left hand beat. This means that after he left Mitre Sq he walked up Mitre St, turned right into King St and thence to St James Place. This doesn't appear to leave sufficient time for Jack to have accomplished his task and be making his escape. I'd appreciate your comment.

Watkins beat shown here:

https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVPMy6zMo=/

Cheers, George

If the Ripper and Eddowes entered the square as soon as Watkins left, there would have been sufficient time to commit the murder and mutilations and still encounter Watkins in the Orange Market square. We don't know if Watkins went down Sugar Bakers Yard before entering the Orange Market square, or if he stopped to chat with the firemen in the hut before walking over to the St. James passage (shades of the Stephen White story). Seven minutes would have been plenty of time between the murder and the possible encounter.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Seven minutes would have been plenty of time between the murder and the possible encounter.

Langdon made it clear that nothing like seven minutes had elapsed between Watkins' leaving the square and his alleged encounter with the supposed murderer.

[Wickerman]

Both Eddowes and the woman seen by Lawende wore black bonnets.

Abby was talking about the hat the man wore - the peaked cap.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Abby was talking about the hat the man wore - the peaked cap.

You are right, but my point about the bonnets is still valid.

[Wickerman]

We're weighing up options, nothing is impossible nor precludes anything. It's a case of which of the options is most likely.

In the event you believe that Lawende and associates saw Catherine, then you have to believe that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage the WM decided to stay put.

That would not be in line with researched human behaviour and known concepts such as the principle of least effort which govern all human actions.

As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

My anecdotal contribution is to say that in the early 70's (70-72?) I was at Mitre Square at 1:00 on a Sunday morning, mainly to get the experience of the place at that hour.
I theorized the killer should hear PC Harvey coming down Church Passage, so I stood on the spot where the body was and my friend walked down Church Passage from Duke St., and yes from about half-way down his footsteps could be heard across the square.
I think the killer had time to get out of the square before Harvey reached the end of the passage.
The thing that didn't occur to me at the time was if Harvey could have heard fleeing footsteps from his position in the lower half of the passage.

When I was there the square was not the total echo chamber, the houses behind where the body was found, those that faced Mitre Street, had been torn down.

[Wickerman]

You are right, but my point about the bonnets is still valid.

But Nichols, Stride, Eddowes, even Tabram & Coles for that matter all wore black bonnets - must have been very common don't you think, maybe even as common as flat peaked caps for men?

[Wickerman]

...
As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

And that conclusion opens the door for the statement by Blenkingsop, and those people he saw in St. James Place.
Was it a couple, and were they headed towards St. James Passage?
The journalist felt the sighting was important, I think, because they were headed towards the passage, I suspect that detail was left out for want of space.
Sometimes when we try to be brief in a comment we leave out a pertinent bit because it was so obvious, that could be the case here.