The Knife

[Chava]

We've discussed the apron. We've discussed the graffito. But I think we've kind of taken the knife for granted. I'm putting this thread here rather than in the general victim discussion because I think it forms a trinity with the other two.

First of all, how does he carry it? I assume it's concealed until he needs it, but it's not a short blade and it doesn't sound like a clasp-knife. It's also extremely sharp. He could ram it into his belt under his jacket but I think the blade's too long and it might be seen. He could push it under his trousers but he risks doing to himself what he's been doing to his victims. He could hold it by the handle and push it up his sleeve but the same risks of cutting himself apply. He could have a scabbard for it--either nicely-made or jury-rigged--and put it somewhere under his jacket. But that might make it awkward to get at when he wants it because he's likely to want it real fast in in a particular situation where his victim might be struggling. I assume that is why he asphyxiates first but not all the women were asphyxiated.

Secondly--and this to me is really important--does he wipe it? Is there any evidence to show that he wipes it? A knife wiped free of blood will leave an unmistakeable mark on a piece of cloth if he simply folds the cloth and wipes both sides simultaneously. He might grab a piece of material and wipe one side and then the other but I think that would show up as a wipe-mark as well. I am assuming he wipes it because, if he doesn't, wherever he keeps it is going to commence to stink really soon and will not be easy to clean. This might attract attention to him that he really doesn't want. I also assume he wipes it because if he doesn't, the blade will start to deteriorate and dull. He prefers his knife sharp according to the medical evidence of the time. It certainly does not look like he wiped it on the piece of apron and if I read the evidence right, he didn't use it to cut the piece off until after he wiped the knife, because if he had there would be blood-trace evidence on the apron left behind. So he removes the organs, conceals them, wipes the knife, and then takes a piece of the apron. According to the inquest there was no blood on the front of the clothes but he must have wiped the knife somehow. If in fact he did do this, then he cannot have used the linen piece he took to carry the organs in. So he uses it for a different reason.

[RivkahChaya]

The most common materials for scabbards were leather and wood. Both of those would rot if you got a lot of blood on them, and they'd be hard to clean. Is there such a thing as a hinged wooden scabbard, that was varnished on the inside, and opened for cleaning?

In high school, I used to juggle, and was pretty good. Carving and butchers knives were some of the things my friends and I juggled. We didn't sharpen them, but we didn't dull them on purpose, either, so we could cut things beforehand for show. We stored them on our bags of stuff (our clubs, balls, etc.) in cut strips of bicycle inner tubes.

Is a rubber scabbard possible? I know rubber is natural, but it doesn't rot like wood or leather-- as quickly, anyway, and it could be rinsed and dried with a cloth.

The only other things I can think of are soap and wax. Something to shove onto the blade so it wouldn't cut his pocket, and then rinsed, and after a few uses, disposed of.

He could have an extra pocket sewn into the inside of a coat, narrow, and angled, and maybe made from canvas.

I don't think this guy was a meticulous planner, but after the first night, when he lost the knife because it cut through his pocket, he'd have to think of something.

[Chava]

I don't think this guy was a meticulous planner, but after the first night, when he lost the knife because it cut through his pocket, he'd have to think of something.

Wait, what?

When did he lose the knife?

[moonbegger]

Hello chava ,

I have always been under the impression that the killer used more than one knife .. a shorter stronger blade for the cutting of the throat , and a longer more agile blade for the rest of the job .

Would the killer be best served by a singular vessel, in which to keep both his knives and removed organs in ( i.e. A Bag ) ?

moonbegger

[Chava]

Hi Moonbegger, that's a really good point about the knife. He may well have had two. But I'm still interested in the issue of whether he wiped it off or not and when. If he cuts the linen off the apron with a clean knife, he's wiped it already. Which suggests to me he's done with his knife or knives for the evening. It's possible the trophies were on the ground at that point. The absence of blood on the front of the clothes does not suggest they were lying on the body. But I find it strange he wipes the knife first on something else before cutting the linen when there is that very handy apron lying there just waiting to be used as a knife-wipe. That suggests a level of fastidiousness that I hadn't previously considered. He must wipe his knife on something else--maybe a handkerchief--and then stash the organs in that but then what is the piece of apron for? I thought for a long time that he cut himself and had to wrap the wound. But there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that either on the apron or on the piece of apron. It's the sequence that bothers me. If, in fact, there was evidence of blood along the tear-line, or blood spotting from a wound on the apron, or evidence of a wiped blade anywhere near the apron or the piece, then there's no real mystery. But it doesn't sound like there is. Don't forget, even a bunched piece of cloth would display breaks in the bloodstain where the material had been bunched up. Admittedly there was a ton of blood around the body but it seemed to have seeped back onto the pavement. I don't think they'd have missed a knife-wipe stain here or on the other victims.

[RivkahChaya]

Wait, what?

When did he lose the knife?

I was joking, phrasing it that way, but I was postulating that he tried going out with the knife just in his pocket once, and before he'd walked a block, it had cut through the fabric, and fallen down his pants leg.

"That's never happened to me before."

[lynn cates]

leather apron

Hello Chava. Good question.

How about a leather apron with appurtenances for knives?

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Using the cut apron to wipe the knife doesn't make any sense, because it would be faster to just wipe the knife, than to cut the fabric, and wipe while walking. Maybe he cut it before he started cutting her. If he had two knives, one for cutting her throat, and one for cutting her abdomen, and he used the abdomen knife on the fabric, before he started cutting, the cut would be clean.

Wasn't one of her skirts red? If he wiped the knife on that, and it were examined under lamplight, before the blood had a chance to turn color completely, blade-shaped wipe marks might escape notice.

[Chava]

He wipes the knife or knives on something I think. And Lynn's suggestion of a leather apron would work except by this time I doubt any whore in London would go with a man wearing one! It's the preciseness of it that's caught my attention. He has to wipe that knife. He could wipe it on anything but he has to wipe it on something and so far no inquest evidence has suggested that the examiners have found any trace of that on any of the victims. And there's certainly no trace of blood down that tear otherwise I think it would have been mentioned. That apron was white. Even if it was spotted and soiled, it would be hard not to see a trace of blood on it. So either he wipes his knife damned thoroughly before he uses it to cut the apron. Or he doesn't cut the apron but tears it along the mend. Which is possible but might be time-consuming if Eddowes is a decent needlewoman, and he's got at least one knife to hand to do it faster...

[RivkahChaya]

You don't like the idea that he cut the apron before he cut her?

[Errata]

Scabbarding is an interesting question. Because while a clasp knife could certainly accomplish the initial throat cut, the sawing of the throat and the abdominal mutilations would have to be done by a fixed blade knife. And also the abdominal mutilations would require a decent sized blade, at least five inches. Yes, the most common scabbards commercially available were leather and wood. But the poor man's scabbard was and still is cardboard. Fold it in half, tape, glue, or tie it, voila, scabbard. And it doesn't matter if it rots because it's easily replaced. As to where he had it, I think the long knife was at his back. at his side is potentially too visible, it would never stay in his shoe, pocket is too small.

[moonbegger]

Chava ,

According to Dr Brown

There were no stains of blood on the bricks or pavement around.

So for me , the intriguing question becomes .. if the killer uses both hands to wipe his blade .. Where does he place the removed bloody organs during this operation ? I think the only solution other than placing them in a singular carrying device , is to juggle said organs whilst wiping off his blade ! I've seen it don with apples , but never with bloody body organs

moonbegger

[Chava]

Moonbegger,

That's my point. There is no logic in this situation. I thought he must have used the apron piece to transport the organs, but no one who saw it seems to have drawn that conclusion.

RivkahChaya says he may have cut the apron before cutting the victim, but if that's the case, then for sure he has two knives because if not there is blood-trace on the apron. Even so it's cumbersome. He wipes that knife I'm sure of it. But I'm not sure what he wipes it on. And when you start thinking about these issues, the use of the apron piece becomes less clear rather than more clear. Because he needs something to wipe his knife on. He needs something to carry his trophies in. And he needs a piece of apron that doesn't seem to have been used for either of these two functions.

Errata, good point about the cardboard scabbard and where he carries it. But I'm not sure how he fixes it to his back. Thread or rope might saw through the cardboard and the knife might drop at an inopportune moment.

[moonbegger]

That's my point. There is no logic in this situation. I kind of assume he comes prepared with something and puts the organs straight in there. Except maybe he lost it or forgot it and that's why he needs the apron. Except if that's the case I'd expect him to cut the apron as soon as he needs it which is after he removes the organs.

This is all of course assuming that the Killer did take it ! there was also a great argument put forward that it may have been removed by one of the Met Police who wished to poke a preverbal stick at his City police brothers , whom they allegedly nicknamed (The Juwes ) referring to their Old Jewry HQ. So there is also the possibility that both the Graffito & apron , may well have been an in house joke that blew out of control by the someone in the Met camp .

moonbegger

[RivkahChaya]

Moonbegger,

That's my point. There is no logic in this situation. I thought he must have used the apron piece to transport the organs, but no one who saw it seems to have drawn that conclusion.

RivkahChaya says he may have cut the apron before cutting the victim, but if that's the case, then for sure he has two knives because if not there is blood-trace on the apron. Even so it's cumbersome. He wipes that knife I'm sure of it. But I'm not sure what he wipes it on. And when you start thinking about these issues, the use of the apron piece becomes less clear rather than more clear. Because he needs something to wipe his knife on. He needs something to carry his trophies in. And he needs a piece of apron that doesn't seem to have been used for either of these two functions.

Errata, good point about the cardboard scabbard and where he carries it. But I'm not sure how he fixes it to his back. Thread or rope might saw through the cardboard and the knife might drop at an inopportune moment.

Sequence (proposed):

1) cuts throat with knife A;
2) cuts apron with knife B;
3) wipes A on apron;
4) lays apron on ground;
5) rips abdomen with B;
6) removes kidney and puts it on apron where it obscures wipe mark;
7) wipes B on apron by holding portion of cloth between fingers, and sliding knife through, so there is no blade shaped wipe mark;
8) puts knives in scabbards, or whatever protects his clothes;
9) rolls kidney up in cloth
10) passes through Goulston St., and sees sturdier container (eg, discarded beer bucket) for carrying kidney, and so drops cloth and moves kidney to container.

Primary purpose of piece of apron was to keep from having to put organ directly on ground, where it would pick up dirt, grime, etc. Afterwards, it occurs to him to just roll up kidney in apron and go.