The Knife

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

A bag could of been used but I kind of like the sleeve idear you can have a fair sized knife there and it wont be noticed and a leather sheath boiled in wax or tallo will be stiff and not rot Iv done this for the knifes that I have made ,and I do wonder did he use butchers paper for the organs?
One more thing with the sleeve idear you can use a normal belt sheath and no matter what you wear be it jacket of heavy coat you can get to the knife very easy.

[Zena]

(P.S. a "life preserver" is a small cosh)

Just in case anyone else doesn't know what a "cosh" is...

From Merriam-Webster.com:

Cosh -
chiefly British
: a weighted weapon similar to a blackjack

[Errata]

Men did carry black leather bags...

"...He flourished his arms about and exhibited a black leather bag, about which he made some remarks. He caught hold of several females, and caused considerable alarm. The officers, after much difficulty, got the prisoner to the station, being followed by an excited mob. At the station the bag carried by the accused was searched, and in it were found two pairs of scissors, a dagger and sheath, and a life preserver."

Why reinvent the wheel?

(P.S. a "life preserver" is a small cosh)

Men did carry knives in their leather bags, the above is only one example.

.

I still like to think he had the other kind of life preserver. Way better visual.

[Wickerman]

Men did carry black leather bags...

"...He flourished his arms about and exhibited a black leather bag, about which he made some remarks. He caught hold of several females, and caused considerable alarm. The officers, after much difficulty, got the prisoner to the station, being followed by an excited mob. At the station the bag carried by the accused was searched, and in it were found two pairs of scissors, a dagger and sheath, and a life preserver."

Why reinvent the wheel?

(P.S. a "life preserver" is a small cosh)

Men did carry knives in their leather bags, the above is only one example.

.

[Bridewell]

There was also a great argument put forward that it may have been removed by one of the Met Police who wished to poke a preverbal stick at his City police brothers , whom they allegedly nicknamed (The Juwes ) referring to their Old Jewry HQ.

moonbegger

Hi MB,

It's an interesting idea but, so far as I'm aware there is only one source for this claim and it is in a book whose author has since admitted to researching the wrong Joseph Barnett. It's not a bad book in other respects (certainly not as bad as some I've read) but I wouldn't discount the possibility that the author himself was on the wrong end of a police wind-up.

[Errata]

Errata, good point about the cardboard scabbard and where he carries it. But I'm not sure how he fixes it to his back. Thread or rope might saw through the cardboard and the knife might drop at an inopportune moment.

The way I used to do it was to wrap wire or string around the "scabbard" while the knife was in it, and then make a loop at the end of the wire or string. Put the "scabbard" through the loop so it catches on the crossguard, and you have a quick and dirty belt loop.

[moonbegger]

This is all of course assuming that the Killer did take it ! there was also a great argument put forward that it may have been removed by one of the Met Police who wished to poke a preverbal stick at his City police brothers , whom they allegedly nicknamed (The Juwes ) referring to their Old Jewry HQ. So there is also the possibility that both the Graffito & apron , may well have been an in house joke that blew out of control by the someone in the Met camp .

moonbegger

And of course , this scenario would also go along way towards explaining Charles Warren's seemingly over eagerness to erase the message .. especially if he had a rough idea of the possible horse play going on between the two forces .

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

only . . .

Hello Chava. Thanks.

"And Lynn's suggestion of a leather apron would work except by this time I doubt any whore in London would go with a man wearing one!"

Of course, I referred only to Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Yes, except there is no trace of 'wipes A on apron'. None. If he wiped a knife it doesn't seem to have gotten wiped on that lovely handy piece of linen.

If he squeezed it between his fingers, and wiped it vertically, there'd be an oval ring, not a blade-shaped blur. Put some red food coloring in corn syrup, put it on a knife, then wipe it the way you'd wipe something thicker, like peanut butter, between your fingers, using a very small piece of fabric.

If he wrapped a kidney up in the rag after, it could obscure a circular wipe mark.

[Chava]

Yes, except there is no trace of 'wipes A on apron'. None. If he wiped a knife it doesn't seem to have gotten wiped on that lovely handy piece of linen.

[RivkahChaya]

Moonbegger,

That's my point. There is no logic in this situation. I thought he must have used the apron piece to transport the organs, but no one who saw it seems to have drawn that conclusion.

RivkahChaya says he may have cut the apron before cutting the victim, but if that's the case, then for sure he has two knives because if not there is blood-trace on the apron. Even so it's cumbersome. He wipes that knife I'm sure of it. But I'm not sure what he wipes it on. And when you start thinking about these issues, the use of the apron piece becomes less clear rather than more clear. Because he needs something to wipe his knife on. He needs something to carry his trophies in. And he needs a piece of apron that doesn't seem to have been used for either of these two functions.

Errata, good point about the cardboard scabbard and where he carries it. But I'm not sure how he fixes it to his back. Thread or rope might saw through the cardboard and the knife might drop at an inopportune moment.

Sequence (proposed):

1) cuts throat with knife A;
2) cuts apron with knife B;
3) wipes A on apron;
4) lays apron on ground;
5) rips abdomen with B;
6) removes kidney and puts it on apron where it obscures wipe mark;
7) wipes B on apron by holding portion of cloth between fingers, and sliding knife through, so there is no blade shaped wipe mark;
8) puts knives in scabbards, or whatever protects his clothes;
9) rolls kidney up in cloth
10) passes through Goulston St., and sees sturdier container (eg, discarded beer bucket) for carrying kidney, and so drops cloth and moves kidney to container.

Primary purpose of piece of apron was to keep from having to put organ directly on ground, where it would pick up dirt, grime, etc. Afterwards, it occurs to him to just roll up kidney in apron and go.

[moonbegger]

That's my point. There is no logic in this situation. I kind of assume he comes prepared with something and puts the organs straight in there. Except maybe he lost it or forgot it and that's why he needs the apron. Except if that's the case I'd expect him to cut the apron as soon as he needs it which is after he removes the organs.

This is all of course assuming that the Killer did take it ! there was also a great argument put forward that it may have been removed by one of the Met Police who wished to poke a preverbal stick at his City police brothers , whom they allegedly nicknamed (The Juwes ) referring to their Old Jewry HQ. So there is also the possibility that both the Graffito & apron , may well have been an in house joke that blew out of control by the someone in the Met camp .

moonbegger

[Chava]

Moonbegger,

That's my point. There is no logic in this situation. I thought he must have used the apron piece to transport the organs, but no one who saw it seems to have drawn that conclusion.

RivkahChaya says he may have cut the apron before cutting the victim, but if that's the case, then for sure he has two knives because if not there is blood-trace on the apron. Even so it's cumbersome. He wipes that knife I'm sure of it. But I'm not sure what he wipes it on. And when you start thinking about these issues, the use of the apron piece becomes less clear rather than more clear. Because he needs something to wipe his knife on. He needs something to carry his trophies in. And he needs a piece of apron that doesn't seem to have been used for either of these two functions.

Errata, good point about the cardboard scabbard and where he carries it. But I'm not sure how he fixes it to his back. Thread or rope might saw through the cardboard and the knife might drop at an inopportune moment.

[moonbegger]

Chava ,

According to Dr Brown

There were no stains of blood on the bricks or pavement around.

So for me , the intriguing question becomes .. if the killer uses both hands to wipe his blade .. Where does he place the removed bloody organs during this operation ? I think the only solution other than placing them in a singular carrying device , is to juggle said organs whilst wiping off his blade ! I've seen it don with apples , but never with bloody body organs

moonbegger

[Errata]

Scabbarding is an interesting question. Because while a clasp knife could certainly accomplish the initial throat cut, the sawing of the throat and the abdominal mutilations would have to be done by a fixed blade knife. And also the abdominal mutilations would require a decent sized blade, at least five inches. Yes, the most common scabbards commercially available were leather and wood. But the poor man's scabbard was and still is cardboard. Fold it in half, tape, glue, or tie it, voila, scabbard. And it doesn't matter if it rots because it's easily replaced. As to where he had it, I think the long knife was at his back. at his side is potentially too visible, it would never stay in his shoe, pocket is too small.