was Eddowes strangled?

[Greenway]

A role of beef is just muscle right, the human neck is mostly muscle except the windpipe itself, which is thin.
So what is the resistance to the blade that you assume requires considerable force?

There is no comparison between a cooked role of beef and a human neck. There are lots of tendons and cartilage in the neck as well as muscle. Cooking breaks down muscle fibre making it easier to cut.

[DJA]

In a number of the cases it would be too dark to do anything by sight IMO - unless he had an assistant carrying a lantern, which I don't believe to be the case.

How do you account for the cholesterol removal around Eddowes eyes?

[DJA]

Did a bit of kangaroo shooting in my younger days and have worked in an abattoir.

Wickerman knows what he is on about,as usual.

Trevor has no bloody idea,as usual.

Please continue .....

[Wickerman]

It's not a good comparison. The larger wound on Nichols's neck would take considerable force IMO - I'm not a doctor, pathologist or butcher though so would be interested to hear other opinions.

A role of beef is just muscle right, the human neck is mostly muscle except the windpipe itself, which is thin.
So what is the resistance to the blade that you assume requires considerable force?

[Greenway]

If you can slice roast beef for Sunday dinner, you can cut someones throat.

It's not a good comparison. The larger wound on Nichols's neck would take considerable force IMO - I'm not a doctor, pathologist or butcher though so would be interested to hear other opinions.

[Trevor Marriott]

I'm intrigued as to why you think that?
The only part of dismemberment, or mutilation that requires any amount of effort is cutting through the tendons to separate joints.
I speak with some experience as my first three years out of school I served as a butchers apprentice.
The sharper the knife, the less effort is required, but this killer never separated joints he only sliced muscle which takes no real effort. If you can slice roast beef for Sunday dinner, you can cut someones throat.

if he killed her from behind then he would have first inserted the knife into her throat and then drawn it across if the knife was inserted into the throat deeply then an amount of force would be needed to draw the knife across to the point of almost decapitation

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Ms Diddles]

If the ligature indentation was deep enough, wouldn't the knife kinda slip in then naturally follow the groove without too much effort?

I hasten to add that I'm a vegetarian of 35+ years standing, so have zero experience of butchering meat (or humans, obviously!!!).

[Wickerman]

Some of the cuts to the throat would have required a tremendous amount of force to inflict - I'd keep my fingers well out of the way.

I'm intrigued as to why you think that?
The only part of dismemberment, or mutilation that requires any amount of effort is cutting through the tendons to separate joints.
I speak with some experience as my first three years out of school I served as a butchers apprentice.
The sharper the knife, the less effort is required, but this killer never separated joints he only sliced muscle which takes no real effort. If you can slice roast beef for Sunday dinner, you can cut someones throat.

[Greenway]

Agreed, plus with a deep, clearly defined groove such as the one pictured it could be done largely by feel.

Some of the cuts to the throat would have required a tremendous amount of force to inflict - I'd keep my fingers well out of the way.

[Greenway]

If it was light enough to remove internal organs, it was light enough to see the ligature mark.

In a number of the cases it would be too dark to do anything by sight IMO - unless he had an assistant carrying a lantern, which I don't believe to be the case.

[Wickerman]

I'd never really considered this before, Wick but to me it makes sense.

The (horrible) picture which you posted shows how deep and clearly defined the ligature mark is, so I'm thinking it would be relatively easy even in the dark and under pressure of time to trace the line quite precisely with a blade.

Yes, and a common question has arisen over the years asking "why the second cut?"
It only took one slice of the knife, as with Stride, to kill the victim, so why does this killer take the time to run the knife all around the neck? He did this with Nichols, Chapman had a circular incision, Kelly had numerous cuts. Stride only the one, but sadly Dr. Gordon-Brown never told us how many cuts were applied to Eddowes. He simply described the appearance of the wound, but the terminology he used implies more than one cut.

Stride is the odd one out, if this was the same killer then he must have been interrupted from making that second cut.
I've had to wonder if he didn't use the garotte this time as following the Chapman murder the press first mentioned the possibility (by Phillips?) of strangulation. So perhaps he changed his method in case the authorities had guessed what was being used?

[Ms Diddles]

If it was light enough to remove internal organs, it was light enough to see the ligature mark.

Agreed, plus with a deep, clearly defined groove such as the one pictured it could be done largely by feel.

[Wickerman]

Yes, a ligature leaves a very clear, distinctive mark - not present on any victim. How did he manage to cut with such force that a number of victims were nearly decapitated, exactly along the ligature mark every time, in the dark?

If it was light enough to remove internal organs, it was light enough to see the ligature mark.

[Wickerman]

Why does he need to hide the garrotte marks?

In the 1860's there was a rash of garrotings across London, it was used by muggers to render their victims unconscious so they could be robbed. Yet, some victims died. Muggin was not always considered a capital offense so when the prison's became overcrowded periodically the less dangerous offenders were let out on what was known as "Ticket-of-Leave', which was like our modern Parole.
The use of the garrote never really died out, it was still used sporadically into the 1880's.

The Met police posted the names of all the Ticket-of-Leave men who were out on leave in the Police Gazette. So, if any one of these men used a garrote while out on leave the police would know who to look for.

[Ms Diddles]

There wouldn't be any bruises around Eddowes neck if he used a cord, as a garroter does.
This is a genuine corpse after the use of a cord.



Dr. Brownfield suggested the killer runs his knife through the ligature (cord) mark to hide the fact it was used.

"But, if the other victims had been first strangled would there not be postmortem indications?" - "If he cut the throat along the line
of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation."

This is likely why we see no external signs of Eddowes being strangled/suffocated.

I'd never really considered this before, Wick but to me it makes sense.

The (horrible) picture which you posted shows how deep and clearly defined the ligature mark is, so I'm thinking it would be relatively easy even in the dark and under pressure of time to trace the line quite precisely with a blade.