was Eddowes strangled?

[Greenway]

There wouldn't be any bruises around Eddowes neck if he used a cord, as a garroter does.
This is a genuine corpse after the use of a cord.



Dr. Brownfield suggested the killer runs his knife through the ligature (cord) mark to hide the fact it was used.

"But, if the other victims had been first strangled would there not be postmortem indications?" - "If he cut the throat along the line
of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation."

This is likely why we see no external signs of Eddowes being strangled/suffocated.

Yes, a ligature leaves a very clear, distinctive mark - not present on any victim. How did he manage to cut with such force that a number of victims were nearly decapitated, exactly along the ligature mark every time, in the dark?

[Greenway]

We often see demonstrations of this type of choke-hold, but the participants are usually wearing T-shirts or leotards, these women wore thick woolen coats with large collars. The arm-hold is not so effective when thick clothing is in the way. It's ok when wrestlers use it, but if the victim has a stiff, or thick woolen collar the arm is not so tight, the application looses its effectiveness.
I doubt this method was used myself.

In the video I posted where the instructor was accidentally rendered unconscious, if you look carefully you will see that he uses the clothing to make the strangle more effective - there are lots of different methods. The technique works by compressing the whole neck - a thick woollen collar would be no defence but I doubt I can find a video to prove that.

It's the simplest method of rendering someone unconscious, doesn't leave marks, and requires no equipment. It doesn't require much skill if the attacker is significantly stronger than his victim. For me it makes the best sense of the evidence, but I'm open to other possibilities.

Why does he need to hide the garrotte marks?

[Wickerman]

Hmmm, could be an injury caused by the tongue pushing through the teeth during strangulation?

The laceration of the tongue could have occurred as he pressed his hand down on her jaw... the tongue trapped between the teeth - as with Chapman, due to strangulation, again.

[Wickerman]

An effective strangulation would render someone unconscious in 5-10 seconds (depending on health/fitness). If performed 'correctly' with the arm, the pressure compresses the whole neck and doesn't leave any marking or bruising (unlike ligature, bar or hands). Once the pressure is released the victim will remain unconscious for around 5 seconds before 'waking up' over the course of another 5-10 seconds.

We often see demonstrations of this type of choke-hold, but the participants are usually wearing T-shirts or leotards, these women wore thick woolen coats with large collars. The arm-hold is not so effective when thick clothing is in the way. It's ok when wrestlers use it, but if the victim has a stiff, or thick woolen collar the arm is not so tight, the application looses its effectiveness.
I doubt this method was used myself.

[DJA]

More than that....

"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation. In Dr. Phillip's own words, "I am of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, but that death arose from syncope consequent on the loss of blood following the severance of the throat."
Star, 24 Dec. 1888.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

Coroner] Was there any disease? - Yes. It was not important as regards the cause of death. Disease of the lungs was of long standing, and there was disease of the membranes of the brain. The stomach contained a little food.

[Wickerman]

I was discussing both the Eddowes and MJK murders with a friend recently who was adamant that all of the c5 excluding Stride were strangled. I always believed that Stride, Eddowes and MJK were not strangled because I do not recall seeing anything suggesting this in the source book. I believe the wording used for example in the Eddowes case was no superficial bruises.

Anyone care to clarify this?

There wouldn't be any bruises around Eddowes neck if he used a cord, as a garroter does.
This is a genuine corpse after the use of a cord.



Dr. Brownfield suggested the killer runs his knife through the ligature (cord) mark to hide the fact it was used.

"But, if the other victims had been first strangled would there not be postmortem indications?" - "If he cut the throat along the line
of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation."

This is likely why we see no external signs of Eddowes being strangled/suffocated.

[Wickerman]

The strangulation theory is somewhat supported by forensics in that there was less blood than should be expected in severed throat killings. In the case of Chapman, the tongue was protruding partway, indicating a likely strangulation....

More than that....

"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation. In Dr. Phillip's own words, "I am of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, but that death arose from syncope consequent on the loss of blood following the severance of the throat."
Star, 24 Dec. 1888.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

[Damaso Marte]

A different line of argument: Eddowes was subdued and taken to the ground somehow, and in a manner that did not produce a lot of noise either. Strangulation is as good of a hypothesis as anything for this.

[DJA]

Thanks.

[Harry D]

Hi George,

No evidence that Sutton was a Freemason.
Although most assume he was C of E,his leanings had become Jewish.Probably as a result of living amongst them at Finsbury Square,next door to where Gull had resided before moving next door to Randy Churchill.Can you see the Astracan,sic, lie of sailorman Hutchinson's.

He was expecting Eddowes and Stride.
Eddowes was his star patient and "brokering" the blackmail.

Rough timeline.

After Nichols and Eddowes had come across each other in Thrawl Street,Nichols moved next to Eddowes in Flower and Dean Street.
Both had been inpatients of Sutton's from December 1867 with Rheumatic Fever.

RL Stevenson's novella had returned as a stage play.

Mary Ann Kelly advised them that Sutton/Hyde was a child molester and bi sexual and that she was the "trampled child".

Eddowes went hopping and Nichols made her move close to The London Hospital.

He was now up for murder rather than two years hard labor.

Chapman was next.He had an attempt at taking her head off knowing she had TB. Another patient.

Stride was not of great interest to him.

Eddowes was,big time.

Once Mary Ann Kelly was taken care of ......

The whole story goes back to 1867 when he was in his first year at the London Hospital and Medical Officer at Mary Ann Kelly's Church Vestry Board.
Sutton probably helped stitch her up.

I've got so much on Sutton.

The police knew,especially Major Henry Smith.

Abberline was rushed in to cover things up.

Ciao for Now,

Dave.

Cool story, bro.

[DJA]

Except for Mary Ann Kelly who prolly was "hiding" under her sheet,all the other four were dead before their throats were cut.

Stride wasn't actually strangled,however the blood flow to her brain was interfered with via an artery.

[Losmandris]

Does the blood pattern around or under the bodies of the victims give an indication of whether strangulation was involved or not. I always assumed the victims had been strangled first as there did not appear to be an arterial spray of blood (with the possible exception of MJK). Am I being naive in thinking thinking there would have been a big spray of blood (is that something only for the movies?)

[DJA]

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Michael W Richards]

The facts I have continually supplied have nothing to do with "The Royal Conspiracy".

The cuts inflicted on Eddowes are consistent with her Rheumatic Fever from December 1867.The strep has also invaded her kidneys.

She also seems to have had cancer.

Unlike the piffle you post on Stride's murder,these are historical medical facts.

Sorry, I suppose a reference like Uncle Jack by Tony Williams is closer to the mark. Consistent...seems to have had...not exactly definite of anything and therefore not "facts" of any kind really. I did say it was a great story though.

Yeah, the piffle based on facts from Stride's murder is small town compared with a 6 woman blackmail scheme,..or was it only 5? a royally connected villain, and medical mysteries.

[DJA]

Hi George,

No evidence that Sutton was a Freemason.
Although most assume he was C of E,his leanings had become Jewish.Probably as a result of living amongst them at Finsbury Square,next door to where Gull had resided before moving next door to Randy Churchill.Can you see the Astracan,sic, lie of sailorman Hutchinson's.

He was expecting Eddowes and Stride.
Eddowes was his star patient and "brokering" the blackmail.

Rough timeline.

After Nichols and Eddowes had come across each other in Thrawl Street,Nichols moved next to Eddowes in Flower and Dean Street.
Both had been inpatients of Sutton's from December 1867 with Rheumatic Fever.

RL Stevenson's novella had returned as a stage play.

Mary Ann Kelly advised them that Sutton/Hyde was a child molester and bi sexual and that she was the "trampled child".

Eddowes went hopping and Nichols made her move close to The London Hospital.

He was now up for murder rather than two years hard labor.

Chapman was next.He had an attempt at taking her head off knowing she had TB. Another patient.

Stride was not of great interest to him.

Eddowes was,big time.

Once Mary Ann Kelly was taken care of ......

The whole story goes back to 1867 when he was in his first year at the London Hospital and Medical Officer at Mary Ann Kelly's Church Vestry Board.
Sutton probably helped stitch her up.

I've got so much on Sutton.

The police knew,especially Major Henry Smith.

Abberline was rushed in to cover things up.

Ciao for Now,

Dave.