Why Mutilate The Nose Specifically?

[lynn cates]

speculation

Hello Velma. Thanks.

I believe she and John came back when others did. I think they were up against it. You do what you must. Perhaps their work was not savoury? Leverage?

Q: Why were Kate's effects rifled and a valuable cigarette case left behind? (Was robbery the motive?)

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

John Kelly and Catherine Eddowes were indeed up against it.

Q: Why pawn your boots, and go bare footed with winter fast approaching when the woman you are living with has a valuable cigarette case in her possesion?

Answer: It was not a valuable cigarette case. In fact the reverse is probably the case (pun intended) and the killer quickly realised this, and discarded it.

[Nemo]

If you study the pictures of the facial injuries to Eddowes, I don't think you can see any attempt to solely cut the nose off the victim

There is evidently a horrendous gash which severed the nose, but appears to me to be an attempt at slicing of the face from the nose to the chin to expose the gums and teeth, or a non-specific slash across the face while the killer was standing

I discussed this with Sam Flynn in the past and he said that in his opinion, the facial injuries were made before JtR moved on to the abdomen, whereas I postulated that the slash to the face was the last of the injuries inflicted before JtR left the scene

Sam (Gareth) gave the reason that faeces was not present on the face whereas faeces would be on the knife if the injury was the last one made

You may also remember Gareth's excellent theory that the upturned Vs on the cheeks were a remnant of the large knife being placed across the nose and used with a sawing motion

Of more interest to the police was the fact that her ear was partially severed, and this after JtR had supposedly threatened to clip the ears off the next victim

IMO Eddowes' ear was clipped by the action of cutting the throat

Jonathon Wild was a famous character from the 18thC whose life and exploits made popular reading in the LVP

You may recall that Wild cut the ear off his mistress to "mark her as a prostitute"

[lynn cates]

If at first you don't succeed . . .

Hello Nemo. Do you think the nose "seems" targeted given he had to make a second attempt at it?

Cheers.
LC

[Nemo]

I personally don't think so

I believe he nicked her eyes, probably to close them, and then moved on to the abdomen

Just prior to leaving the scene I think he slashed her face and it appears to me that if he had more time then her face would have looked like that of Mary Kelly, with no particular interest in the nose

It's open to interpretation of course and the sequence of cuts and whether the nose was targetted is debatable

[lynn cates]

The eyes have it.

Hello Nemo. Thanks.

"I believe he nicked her eyes, probably to close them, and then moved on to the abdomen"

OK. Do you put any stock in the suggestion that the assailant was aware of "possible police capability of photographing the eyes"?

"Just prior to leaving the scene I think he slashed her face . . ."

So Gareth did not convince you with the faecal matter argument?

". . . and it appears to me that if he had more time then her face would have looked like that of Mary Kelly . . ."

Possibly. Just out of curiousity, why do you think the killer was aware so precisely of time?

Cheers.
LC

[Nemo]

Thanks for the interest in my inane ramblings Lynn

Do you put any stock in the suggestion that the assailant was aware of "possible police capability of photographing the eyes"?

To be blunt, no

Gareth did not convince you with the faecal matter argument?

No. There is the distinct possibility that the cutting of the intestine and the spreading of faecal matter was not an error on the part of JtR, but another way of defiling the corpse, the knife being cleaned on the apron piece

In my study of how the cuts progressed, I believe the major facial injuries were the last to be inflicted. The main target was obviously the abdomen and the face an afterthought

Possibly. Just out of curiousity, why do you think the killer was aware so precisely of time??

Apologies Lynn, I didn't intend to imply he was disturbed and ran out of time

I think JtR was supremely confident that he could kill and remove organs within 5 mins, certainly less than 10

In Mitre Square I believe he had a good idea of the time available to him before the square was checked by a policeman

No prior observation necessary, just a general knowledge of the beats and their approximate timing


Regards

Nemo

[lynn cates]

thoughts

Hello Nemo. Thanks.

“Thanks for the interest in my inane ramblings Lynn”

I think we are all reduced to this.

“There is the distinct possibility that the cutting of the intestine and the spreading of faecal matter was not an error on the part of JtR, but another way of defiling the corpse, the knife being cleaned on the apron piece”

Well, I’d agree about “not on the part of JTR.” (heh-heh) I have always considered it a blunder and the apron piece a quick corrective.

“In my study of how the cuts progressed, I believe the major facial injuries were the last to be inflicted. The main target was obviously the abdomen and the face an afterthought.”

Could be, but not sure about the obvious part. Also, can’t help but believe the “feculent matter” would be traced in the face wounds.

“Apologies Lynn, I didn't intend to imply he was disturbed and ran out of time.”

No need to apologise. Just wanted to get clear.

“I think JtR was supremely confident that he could kill and remove organs within 5 mins, certainly less than 10.”

So, a medico?

“In Mitre Square I believe he had a good idea of the time available to him before the square was checked by a policeman.”

Very well. Any idea how he accomplished that?

“No prior observation necessary, just a general knowledge of the beats and their approximate timing.”

Plus the fact that Watkins was coming this night from Mitre Street and not through Church passage?

Cheers.
LC

[Nemo]

Hi Lynn

I've never thought of JtR as a medico. There are a number of other occupations which would account for his speed - slaughterman for example, perhaps a soldier

I've always thought that the simplest method of timing an attack is to wait until the local bobby has just passed the area, giving the maximum time before his return

It is the supposition that Lawende at al saw Eddowes with JtR at Church Passage that makes me think Harvey was observed leaving the location, with a possibility that JtR was not expecting Watkins

However, once the victim is prone and dead, everything would be relatively silent and the approach of a policeman or other witness easy to identify, so maybe JtR had no need to be aware of any police beats, just that there was nobody around when the attack commenced

If you look at the Grainger case, he thought nothing of attacking a woman shortly after being accosted by a policeman

You've probably gathered that I don't think JtR attacked in a frenzy, unaware of his surroundings, and that he was methodical in the injuries he inflicted

[lynn cates]

What Mitre been.

Hello Nemo. Thanks.

"I've never thought of JtR as a medico."

Nor yet I.

"There are a number of other occupations which would account for his speed - slaughterman for example, perhaps a soldier."

Very well.

"I've always thought that the simplest method of timing an attack is to wait until the local bobby has just passed the area, giving the maximum time before his return."

Alright. Which constable do you think Kate's assailant was marking, Harvey or Watkins?

"It is the supposition that Lawende et al saw Eddowes with JtR at Church Passage that makes me think Harvey was observed leaving the location, with a possibility that JtR was not expecting Watkins."

Could be. My problem involves which passage the assassin left through. If through Church passage, he should have run bang into Harvey. But if St. James (pace Gareth), well there's Blenkingsop. Finally, if Mitre st (as per Gavin), Watkins.

"However, once the victim is prone and dead, everything would be relatively silent and the approach of a policeman or other witness easy to identify, so maybe JtR had no need to be aware of any police beats, just that there was nobody around when the attack commenced."

Possible. But Kate's steps were never heard either.

"If you look at the Grainger case, he thought nothing of attacking a woman shortly after being accosted by a policeman."

Yes, but he went to a hospital for the criminally insane. Do you think Kate's chap insane?

"You've probably gathered that I don't think JtR attacked in a frenzy, unaware of his surroundings, and that he was methodical in the injuries he inflicted."

Capital. So no frenzied blood lust post Liz scenario?

Cheers.
LC

[Nemo]

IMO JtR had completed his task and left the square before anyone approached, giving him the opportunity to leave via Mitre St

If Harvey did not reach the end of Church Passage or if he did and JtR was in the corner unobserved, then there is a significant amount of time for JtR to complete the mutilations, not that he needed it (IMO)

George Morris appears preoccupied to me and so didn't hear anything in the square

Grainger had spent time in an asylum but it appears to be related to his drinking - delirium tremens probably, though he was noted as suffering from hallucinations

He didn't appear insane to his 1895 victim and I don't think his insanity was a factor

I don't believe JtR was in a blood lust frame of mind after Stride because...

a) I'm not certain JtR was involved in the Berner St incident
b) He was able to control his blood lust after Nichols and inbetween crimes
c) He wasn't in a blood lust at anytime

An interesting speculation is that he was heading home after the Stride killing and simply came across Eddowes on her own - not that he was actively seeking a second victim

The location of apron piece would be a diversion

I've always thought that (if Stride is a JtR victim) that the direction from Berner St to Mitre Square is more significant than from Mitre Square to Goulston St

As per Sir Robert Anderson, it is difficult to relate the extent of the injuries to a totally sane man

Some words used to describe him are probably correct - such as him being some type of a monomaniac

Many serial killers today are considered psychopathic, perverse, mentally deranged etc without that affliction being evident to those around them in their life, including wives and family

Anyway - getting a bit off topic - apologies

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello Nemo. Thanks.

“IMO JtR had completed his task and left the square before anyone approached, giving him the opportunity to leave via Mitre St”

Task? I like that. OK, Harvey was supposed to be in Church passage at 1.41 or 1.42. So I think that can be ruled out. Watkins came into the square around 1.44. He approached from Mitre Street. The killer needed to exit by 1.43 and—I suppose—head in a westerly direction to avoid Watkins, and being seen. Now I suppose he changes course and heads to Goulston?

“If Harvey did not reach the end of Church Passage or if he did and JtR was in the corner unobserved, then there is a significant amount of time for JtR to complete the mutilations, not that he needed it (IMO).”

No problem that.

“George Morris appears preoccupied to me and so didn't hear anything in the square.”

But he usually did?


“I don't believe JtR was in a blood lust frame of mind after Stride because . . .”

Nor yet do I.

“a) I'm not certain JtR was involved in the Berner St incident.”

Very well.

“b) He was able to control his blood lust after Nichols and in between crimes.”

Well, there seem to be no killings then.

“c) He wasn't in a blood lust at anytime.”

Thanks for that one!

“An interesting speculation is that he was heading home after the Stride killing and simply came across Eddowes on her own - not that he was actively seeking a second victim.”

So he lived in Aldgate, then?

“The location of apron piece would be a diversion.”

Not to mention risky.

“I've always thought that (if Stride is a JtR victim) that the direction from Berner St to Mitre Square is more significant than from Mitre Square to Goulston St.”

Heading home?

“As per Sir Robert Anderson, it is difficult to relate the extent of the injuries to a totally sane man.”

Depends on one’s take on total sanity.

“Some words used to describe him are probably correct - such as him being some type of a monomaniac.”

Especially if he wrote the letters.

“Many serial killers today are considered psychopathic, perverse, mentally deranged etc without that affliction being evident to those around them in their life, including wives and family.”

Can’t say. Know/care almost nothing about serial killers.

“Anyway - getting a bit off topic – apologies.”

No problem. I consider ALL talk of serial killers off topic vis-à-vis the WCM.

Finally, you don’t see the nose as the main point of her facial mutilations?

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Krankster domination?

No problem. I consider ALL talk of serial killers off topic vis-à-vis the WCM.

Good job you're not the owner/moderator of this web-site then, as most of us who do realise that there was a serial killer on the loose in Whitechapel in 1888 would forever be off topic. In effect silenced and unable to post.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Observer

So in your opinion, how many do you think this particular serial killer topped, and exactly why? And what qualifies you in particular to deem any of us a crank?

At the end of the day we're, at best, an oddly assorted collection of folk, with a wide variety of views...

Sorry, but there it is...

Equally Cranky Dave

[Errata]

Finally, you don’t see the nose as the main point of her facial mutilations?

Cheers.
LC

For what it's worth, I don't. Cutting off a nose is idiot proof. Dividing the eyelids without cutting into the eyeballs, that takes some skill and some time. Why bother with such an intricate bit of cutting if that wasn't the focus of the facial mutilation?