Kates missing 45 mins

[Trevor Marriott]

I wonder what happened to Eddowes after she left the police station, no one saw or heard anything from her in the 45 mins between leaving the police station and her being found dead. I am curious to see what the line of thinking as to where she was or where she went.

I am aware that she was seen to leave the police station and turn in the opposite direction to her lodgings, but we dont know if she suddenly realized she was going the wrong way and turned around out of sight of the police.

Of course which ever way she went, her lodgings were no more than a 10 minute walk away, so could she have had the time to have gone back to her lodgings and found the she was unable to gain entry and made her way back to the city. It should be noted that anyone of her routes back to Flower and Dean Street would have taken her into Goulston Street and the same on a reverse journey.

Either of those routes would put her firmly in the location of the Goulston street archway

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[Herlock Sholmes]

We can only speculate of course but perhaps she knew someone in that area who she thought might have given her a few pennies? Or perhaps someone that she hoped might have put her up for the night?

[erobitha]

I find it testament to all those amazing researchers over the years that have done the heavy lifting in uncovering some amazing level of detail from crimes committed over 100 years ago. To the fact we can safely see a window of 45 minutes between Kate leaving the station and her last possible sighting. Amazing research.

For the record, I cannot for the life of me remember what I was doing a week ago today at this very time. I’m pretty sure what it was lasted more than 45 minutes, I think. Time has a funny way of trickling away from you. I guess much can happen in 45 minutes. Or very little at all.

[JeffHamm]

Ooo, this is an interesting question, and while we can not prove anything, we can examine various possibilities.

As a visual aid, I've put together a map showing the various locations. Kate was held at the police station in the upper left (blue dot), and found murdered in Mitre Square (reddish dot, lower left). A piece of her apron was found under the graffitti at Goulston Street (yellow dot, mid image). Flower and Dean is marked with the green line, and I've marked St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the "prostitutes Church" as apparently it was a known location for prostitutes to ply their trade.

She was arrested in the general area of St. Botolph's earlier in the day, and I think I've got the rough location right, but correct me if I'm wrong. I know it is down around there somewhere.



The most direct route, if Kate turned around and headed back to Flower and Dean, cuts pretty much straight across the north of the map via Widegate Street -> White's Row - Commercial Street and then Flower Dean. I've measured that out using the map tools, and that's roughly a 5 minute walk at an average walking speed. As we can see, it doesn't go near Goulston Street, but that's not really a big problem for Trevor's idea since we know in the end Kate ends up down around Mitre Square.




I'm going to use St. Botolph's as a common "end point" for her destination in the vicinity of Mitre Square because it's both central and so our consideration of various routes of travel should not be influenced by it's selection (meaning, if you want to argue she was heading to Mitre Square itself, that's fine, the paths that lead to St. Botolph's will also work for shifting the final destination to Mitre Square). Of course, if you think my choice of St. Botolph's does make a difference, then by all means, feel free to show how (you can just make a copy of the first map and draw in your alternative); saying it makes a difference won't be as helpful and showing it, though.

Anyway, let's say, she then headed down to the vicinity of St. Botolph's after leaving Flower and Dean, as Trevor ponders, there are two routes one might argue she could have taken. The first (marked in green) is the one that would corresponds to what Trevor mentions about her traveling from Flower and Dean to the final destination area and it takes her in the vicinity of where the apron piece was found. That route is roughly 11 min 30 seconds to walk, and technically she passes about 60 feet north of where the apron was found as I've marked it. Of course, she could head south on Goulston at that point, and head to Algate High street. I've not marked all of the possibilities, and just highlighted the two most different routes here, obviously there are many ways to get from A -> B.

The second route I think worth considering would be straight down Commericial Street to Algate High Street and down to St. Botolph's. Where his diverges from the above route it becomes light blue (the first time, not sure how the small segment of blue got into the Green route, sorry). That route is a 10 m 30 second walk (starting at Flower and Dean, not where it turns blue) with fewer turns, and while it's slightly shorter (a minute less), it's not hugely different in that respect to the other. Note, it would be roughly similar length for her to head over to Goulston via the green route then south to intersect the blue route and just involves a straight line from the green route to the blue route next to the yellow dot.



Now, remember, we do not know where Kate was during any of this time period, nor do we really know she headed to this general area. For all we know, she could have been heading quite distant and to the East but in her travels she meets up with JtR who then brings her back to Mitre Square, so coming in from the East on this map.

But, starting with the idea that she went to this area (which includes Trevor's suggestion of first to Flower and Dean then to this area, I've recently been working on the idea that Eddowes, when she was let out of the police station with no money, headed to St. Botolph's to try and earn some. She had no money earlier in the day, yet was arrested for being drunk in that area, so if she had earned money by causual prostitution earlier in the day and had done well enough to get drunk, it seems fair to consider the possibility she went back to try her luck again.

As for my own views, when she left the police station it was said she turned in the direction of Houndsditch, which could indicate that the police at the time had this same thing in mind (or it means I'm seeing things that agree with me, otherwise known as confirmation bias). Regardless, I've been thinking she may have just headed to Houndsditch, and then straight down to St. Botolph's (or Algate High Street area if you prefer). It's about a 7 min walk from the police to St. Botolphs. So, if she gets there around 1:10, and is murdered at 1:35ish, then the rest of the time she's either looking for trade, or interacting with JtR I suppose. This idea does not place her in the vicinity of Goulston Street.




Anyway, none of these are proven and simply reflect the different ways of thinking we have. I'm sure everyone has their own ideas about what Eddowes was doing and where she was doing it. In the end, all that we know for sure, is that at 1:44 she's found dead in Mitre Square after having left the police station at 1:00.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Ooo, this is an interesting question, and while we can not prove anything, we can examine various possibilities.

As a visual aid, I've put together a map showing the various locations. Kate was held at the police station in the upper left (blue dot), and found murdered in Mitre Square (reddish dot, lower left). A piece of her apron was found under the graffitti at Goulston Street (yellow dot, mid image). Flower and Dean is marked with the green line, and I've marked St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the "prostitutes Church" as apparently it was a known location for prostitutes to ply their trade.

She was arrested in the general area of St. Botolph's earlier in the day, and I think I've got the rough location right, but correct me if I'm wrong. I know it is down around there somewhere.



The most direct route, if Kate turned around and headed back to Flower and Dean, cuts pretty much straight across the north of the map via Widegate Street -> White's Row - Commercial Street and then Flower Dean. I've measured that out using the map tools, and that's roughly a 5 minute walk at an average walking speed. As we can see, it doesn't go near Goulston Street, but that's not really a big problem for Trevor's idea since we know in the end Kate ends up down around Mitre Square.




I'm going to use St. Botolph's as a common "end point" for her destination in the vicinity of Mitre Square because it's both central and so our consideration of various routes of travel should not be influenced by it's selection (meaning, if you want to argue she was heading to Mitre Square itself, that's fine, the paths that lead to St. Botolph's will also work for shifting the final destination to Mitre Square). Of course, if you think my choice of St. Botolph's does make a difference, then by all means, feel free to show how (you can just make a copy of the first map and draw in your alternative); saying it makes a difference won't be as helpful and showing it, though.

Anyway, let's say, she then headed down to the vicinity of St. Botolph's after leaving Flower and Dean, as Trevor ponders, there are two routes one might argue she could have taken. The first (marked in green) is the one that would corresponds to what Trevor mentions about her traveling from Flower and Dean to the final destination area and it takes her in the vicinity of where the apron piece was found. That route is roughly 11 min 30 seconds to walk, and technically she passes about 60 feet north of where the apron was found as I've marked it. Of course, she could head south on Goulston at that point, and head to Algate High street. I've not marked all of the possibilities, and just highlighted the two most different routes here, obviously there are many ways to get from A -> B.

The second route I think worth considering would be straight down Commericial Street to Algate High Street and down to St. Botolph's. Where his diverges from the above route it becomes light blue (the first time, not sure how the small segment of blue got into the Green route, sorry). That route is a 10 m 30 second walk (starting at Flower and Dean, not where it turns blue) with fewer turns, and while it's slightly shorter (a minute less), it's not hugely different in that respect to the other. Note, it would be roughly similar length for her to head over to Goulston via the green route then south to intersect the blue route and just involves a straight line from the green route to the blue route next to the yellow dot.



Now, remember, we do not know where Kate was during any of this time period, nor do we really know she headed to this general area. For all we know, she could have been heading quite distant and to the East but in her travels she meets up with JtR who then brings her back to Mitre Square, so coming in from the East on this map.

But, starting with the idea that she went to this area (which includes Trevor's suggestion of first to Flower and Dean then to this area, I've recently been working on the idea that Eddowes, when she was let out of the police station with no money, headed to St. Botolph's to try and earn some. She had no money earlier in the day, yet was arrested for being drunk in that area, so if she had earned money by causual prostitution earlier in the day and had done well enough to get drunk, it seems fair to consider the possibility she went back to try her luck again.

As for my own views, when she left the police station it was said she turned in the direction of Houndsditch, which could indicate that the police at the time had this same thing in mind (or it means I'm seeing things that agree with me, otherwise known as confirmation bias). Regardless, I've been thinking she may have just headed to Houndsditch, and then straight down to St. Botolph's (or Algate High Street area if you prefer). It's about a 7 min walk from the police to St. Botolphs. So, if she gets there around 1:10, and is murdered at 1:35ish, then the rest of the time she's either looking for trade, or interacting with JtR I suppose. This idea does not place her in the vicinity of Goulston Street.




Anyway, none of these are proven and simply reflect the different ways of thinking we have. I'm sure everyone has their own ideas about what Eddowes was doing and where she was doing it. In the end, all that we know for sure, is that at 1:44 she's found dead in Mitre Square after having left the police station at 1:00.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff

Yes there was a reason behind my asking this question the point was to show that within the time parameters she could have made her way back to Flower and Dean street thereby putting her firmly in The area of Goulston Street and the archway, which makes it possible for her to have deposited the apron herself under the archway for the reasons I have been postulating for many years now and how the apron piece is described fits the theory to a tee.

Likewise I accept she could have gone anywhere, but of course because of the doubt created as to the killer cutting the apron piece and him depositing it, and with her having lodging across the road from GS, I dont think the alternative should be ignored. If the apron piece had been found in any other area other than GS I might be concurring with you and those who suggest the killer cut and took away the apron piece, but her lodgings and the Archway are too close to ignore.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

Yes there was a reason behind my asking this question the point was to show that within the time parameters she could have made her way back to Flower and Dean street thereby putting her firmly in The area of Goulston Street and the archway, which makes it possible for her to have deposited the apron herself under the archway for the reasons I have been postulating for many years now and how the apron piece is described fits the theory to a tee.

Likewise I accept she could have gone anywhere, but of course because of the doubt created as to the killer cutting the apron piece and him depositing it, and with her having lodging across the road from GS, I dont think the alternative should be ignored. If the apron piece had been found in any other area other than GS I might be concurring with you and those who suggest the killer cut and took away the apron piece, but her lodgings and the Archway are too close to ignore.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I agree that there is more than enough unaccounted time for her to get from the Police Station, to Flower and Dean, and then to the Mitre Square are via Goulston Street. I think anybody pondering this needs to keep that in mind, what ever you think Kate was doing and where she was going, she has to have enough time to do all of that between being released from the police at 1:00 and be at the crime scene in time to be found at 1:44.

If you can meet that pretty simple criterion, you're good to go. One can cover a lot of ground in 45 minutes (Eddowes could have gone to the Stride murder scene and back and still have time to spare). If you can't meet that criterion, though, you're idea cannot work. I think, however, one would be hard pressed to come up with something that would fail this requirement and yet sound at first blush to be worthy of consideration.

- Jeff

[harry]

Take the time the killer took to kill and mutilate away,plus the time she was in the killers company beforehand ,and the 45 minutes is reduced somewhat.If there is then a discrepency in the time taken to reach Mitre square,I would suggest Eddowes sat down and rested/waited somewhere.What is to say she walked all the time?

[JeffHamm]

Take the time the killer took to kill and mutilate away,plus the time she was in the killers company beforehand ,and the 45 minutes is reduced somewhat.If there is then a discrepency in the time taken to reach Mitre square,I would suggest Eddowes sat down and rested/waited somewhere.What is to say she walked all the time?

Hi Harry,

Yes, one can whittle away a bit of the time. If one goes with the doctors' estimates at the time, the murder only required something like 3-5 minutes type thing, so that still gives 40 minutes. And no, there's nothing that requires her to travel the whole time, but she can't travel more than that, it's an upper, not lower, limit on how much time she could be travelling.

- Jeff

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

I'd like to throw something into the mix that may be relevant.
According to the policeman, PC Watkins, who actually found the mutilated body of Eddowes, he states in his official report that he'd been on duty since around 10 pm, and apparently hadn't seen anybody all night whilst on his beat. Now, skipping the fact that that in itself might be unusual, it might also indicate the distinct lack of human activity in the area that night. It had been raining, remember.

What I'm trying to get at is this. If there was indeed a distinct lack of human activity in the area, that night, as PC Watkins indicated, then the "missing" mins of Eddowes would tend to rule out her using time standing around talking to someone en route to Mitre Square.

You see, if one measures the so called, alleged possible meeting of Eddowes and the killer by the sighting of Lawende as credible.. It would mean that to actually see two people together, at any given point along the route, or in the area, would have been noticed far easier than one person who, in Eddowes case, may have slunken off into a doorway, archway or alleyway for some reason en route.

Two people walking and or talking make a noise. Eddowes, was, wearing boots, that were too big for her, as they were men's boots. That means her footsteps, would likely scrape on the ground as she walked. Two people walking together would enhance said sounds, especially as Watkins, stated that all was quiet in the area.

Just some thoughts that may connect to the missing minutes, or not.


Phil

[Simon Wood]

I very much doubt it was Catherine Eddowes who was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at exactly the same moment Elizabeth Stride's body was discovered in Dutfields Yard by Louis Diemschutz.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Harry,

Yes, one can whittle away a bit of the time. If one goes with the doctors' estimates at the time, the murder only required something like 3-5 minutes type thing, so that still gives 40 minutes. And no, there's nothing that requires her to travel the whole time, but she can't travel more than that, it's an upper, not lower, limit on how much time she could be travelling.

- Jeff

Let me add something to the mix, we know that Eddowes had a partner and we know that she had lodgings to go to, so without wanting to be to presumptuous I think after her release a natural reaction not just from her but from anyone given the same set of circumstances would be to make their way home. People who I have dealt with being released from police custody usually cant wait to get home. So this must be taken into consideration, but I accept that we do not know for sure,but again i emphasize the fact that the doubt surrounding the apron piece lends the support to her being in the vicinity of GS prior to her meeting her killer.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello all,

I'd like to throw something into the mix that may be relevant.
According to the policeman, PC Watkins, who actually found the mutilated body of Eddowes, he states in his official report that he'd been on duty since around 10 pm, and apparently hadn't seen anybody all night whilst on his beat. Now, skipping the fact that that in itself might be unusual, it might also indicate the distinct lack of human activity in the area that night. It had been raining, remember.

What I'm trying to get at is this. If there was indeed a distinct lack of human activity in the area, that night, as PC Watkins indicated, then the "missing" mins of Eddowes would tend to rule out her using time standing around talking to someone en route to Mitre Square.

You see, if one measures the so called, alleged possible meeting of Eddowes and the killer by the sighting of Lawende as credible.. It would mean that to actually see two people together, at any given point along the route, or in the area, would have been noticed far easier than one person who, in Eddowes case, may have slunken off into a doorway, archway or alleyway for some reason en route.

Two people walking and or talking make a noise. Eddowes, was, wearing boots, that were too big for her, as they were men's boots. That means her footsteps, would likely scrape on the ground as she walked. Two people walking together would enhance said sounds, especially as Watkins, stated that all was quiet in the area.

Just some thoughts that may connect to the missing minutes, or not.


Phil

Hi Phil
Good points made

Hope you are well and staying safe?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[harry]

Indeed Jeff,if we work backwards from the time Eddowes body was discovered,we first have to make allowances in line with the doctors estimates.Say five minutes,then perhaps five minutes in the company of her killer,which leaves 35 minutes.From that deduct the time it would take to reach the vicinity of Mitre Square from the police station,by the most direct route,and time left is the time unacounted for.Roughly twenty five to thirty minutes is a good guess.So Trevor's question cannot be answered.There is nothing known of that twenty five to thirty minutes that will help.She could have gone via Goulstan Street,she could have found a quiet spot and rested.Who Knows?

[Trevor Marriott]

Indeed Jeff,if we work backwards from the time Eddowes body was discovered,we first have to make allowances in line with the doctors estimates.Say five minutes,then perhaps five minutes in the company of her killer,which leaves 35 minutes.From that deduct the time it would take to reach the vicinity of Mitre Square from the police station,by the most direct route,and time left is the time unacounted for.Roughly twenty five to thirty minutes is a good guess.So Trevor's question cannot be answered.There is nothing known of that twenty five to thirty minutes that will help.She could have gone via Goulstan Street,she could have found a quiet spot and rested.Who Knows?

I know it cannot be answered, my point is that Flower and Dean street was a max of a 10 minute walk away from the police station so if she had have decided to make her way towards here lodgings and for some reason either could not gain access due to the late hour or she decided to go back to the city taking into account both journeys that still leaves ample time for her to make her way back to the city and to meet her killer and deposit the apron piece under the archway.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let me add something to the mix, we know that Eddowes had a partner and we know that she had lodgings to go to, so without wanting to be to presumptuous I think after her release a natural reaction not just from her but from anyone given the same set of circumstances would be to make their way home. People who I have dealt with being released from police custody usually cant wait to get home. So this must be taken into consideration, but I accept that we do not know for sure,but again i emphasize the fact that the doubt surrounding the apron piece lends the support to her being in the vicinity of GS prior to her meeting her killer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

At the risk of giving Trevor a coronary by agreeing with him.....I agree. When trying to work out where she went (an impossible task) somewhere familiar to her would have to be fairly high on the list I’d say. So if she had time to have got to her lodgings then back to Mitre Square then I’d say that this has to be considered a possibility but then again surely someone would have seen her there? Unless she was heading there but got sidetracked for some reason?