Where is Catherine?

[miakaal4]

Well I personally do not have a clue, well I do have a bit of a clue, but it's useless.
She leaves the Bishopsgate P.S at 01.00 with a "goodnght ****" and despite moaning about being in trouble for her lateness, or lack of funds, she turns left, the opposite way to home, but the right way to Mitre Square.
She is found dead in the Square at 01.45ish. 45 mins later.
So where was she?
My useless clue is that the autopsy say's there was very little in the stomach, which means she hadn't stopped anywhere for food or drink, or even water.
Did no wandering Police Officer see her?
I know there was a probable sighting at 01.35 ish, but none saw her face. Just the same sort of clothes.
PC Watkins passed through the square at 01.30 and saw nothing suspicious, but why did he not see the couple? If it was indeed Eddows, where were they when he passed through?
Is it possible he missed Eddows body and only saw it when he approached from the opposite direction? He could have been distracted by the sound of the couple Lawende and pals saw a few minutes later.
I have read the theory around her keeping an appointment, but that is very difficult to believe. She didn't have a phone in her pocket to let the other know she was being released, for all she knew she might be in there all night.
She had sobered up, but it took her 30 minutes to make a ten minute journey.
Assuming JtR was still fleeing the Stride killing, would he have met her somewhere near Bishopsgate, and they wandered, slowly down toward Mitre Sq?
If so, why did know one see them?

[Jon Guy]

Hello Miakaal

I don`t think we`ll ever know what was on her mind.But, perhaps ironically, she thought it safer for her walk to walk home via the main roads.

Why half an hour to Mitre Sq from the cop shop. Maybe, she took shelter in doorways from the rain as she meandered along.

Also, remember that she had spent some of that afternoon in Houndsditch, which is only two streets away from Mitre Sq. She might have gone back that way in connection with the time she spent there earlier in the day.

[Phil H]

Possibilities that occur to me:

* she was still pretty drunk and just wandered aimlessly until "Jack" found her;

* she was sober but "dawdled"/walked slowly;

* she went somewhere specific (where?) and then resumed her walk;

* she was looking for someone specific and it took him to find him;

* by previous arrangement she met "Jack" whom she knew; after chatting indoors somewhere (his home) he offered to walk home with her and killed her;

* "Jack" bumped into her soon after she left the police station (especially if he had not killed Stride) and perhaps killed her earlier than we have been led to believe; or took longer to do the deed (thus maybe it was not he and kate that Lawende saw);

* "Jack" was tipped off when she left the police station (by whom? why?), met her, lured her to Mitre Sq and killed her.

There my be more.

Some of these don't make much sense but I just tried to brainstorm the options. Make of them what you will.

Phil H

[miakaal4]

Hi Phil,
She could have even serviced a punter on the way to the Square. There are a lot of ifs and buts around Eddows, she was more than just the one in the middle, if you know what I mean. I know her time spent before she was killed could have been absolutely innocent. However, some of it was spent meeting her killer, somewhere, and getting from that place to Mitre Square without being noticed. Or arriving there alone, without being noticed, meeting someone after Watkins, but before Lawende. For all the extra police about, there was a hell of a lot that was not noticed!

[Phil H]

Why should it be, she was one "bag lady" in a land of "bag ladies". we have no sighting of Polly Nichols for an hour or so before her death (and if she had not bumped into her old buddy Emily Holland we wouldn't even have that).

Chapman is invisible for a long time before her body was found - though I personally reckon that was because she was murdered earlier than usually accepted.

If Eddowes did not meet someone she knew she would not have been recognised and thus effectively have been invisible. She could have sat on a wall, chatted to people who did not know her....

We cannot say when "Jack" met her, if she knew him, how long they were together....

To me that's unsurprising.

Phil H

[Lechmere]

The simplest and most likely explanation is that she wandered off in the algate direction looking for a punter and took a while to find one - and when she did, quite close to mitre square - met a plausible stranger who after a brief chat she led to mitre square.

[Phil H]

For once, Lechmere, I'm inclined to agree with you!!

On the other hand, if she knew who "Jack" was.. or someone was on the trail of Mary Jane Kelly....

Phil H

[Monty]

Aldgate seems to have been her patch.

Monty

[miakaal4]

Well there could be a more plausible explanation than this but here goes;
Apparently there were people around who supplied the everyday things like tea, sugar etc, on credit. She had both in her pockets. Had she been shopping? London even then was a 24 hour city. Also, when you think of Strides' piece of velvet, Nicols "jolly bonnet" that no-one recognised, it is possible that they, if not all five were thieves as well as ladies of ill repute. If so they would all know a "fence" to buy the gear from them.
Eddows had 2 pipes, and a cigarette case??
This weird line of thought came up while I was thinking about the Vic's possessions. Why would the killer cut open their pockets?
Was he looking for something that would give him away?
Cut-purses, items out of place, the robbing of the have nots.
Buttons and a mustard tin next to Eddows body, but was something missing apart from the piece of apron? And if so, where and when did she get it?

[Phil H]

Monty - I've never been able to satisfy myself that Eddowes was "on the game". But then, once they were dead their friends always sought to put the best complexion possible on the deceased. So maybe you are right.

If she had been with a client before meeting "Jack"/her killer would the police/medicos have been able to tell?

was something missing apart from the piece of apron? And if so, where and when did she get it?

miakaal - do you have any idea what "it" might have been? I'm not quite clear what it is you think she might have had that would give her killer away.

It is true that Polly had stolen clothing before - so you may have a point about the bonnet. I'd always assumed, I must admit, that she had made a few pence been on a spree and treated herself to a new hat (second hand, I assume). I seem to recall that Frances Coles also had two - one bonnet pinned under her skirt - so maybe they got a punter to buy them something nice (and new).

In the days of pipe-smoking, smokers often had more than one pipe - I recall my father and grandfather having pipe "racks" (like a farm gate). Kate would not be unusual in that.

Her "going shopping" is not something I'd thought about. She was going home, expecting a slap, so maybe she had been to buy groceries. But where did she get the money, if so?

Phil H

[Lechmere]

Phil
The first of many no doubt

[Cogidubnus]

Her "going shopping" is not something I'd thought about. She was going home, expecting a slap, so maybe she had been to buy groceries. But where did she get the money, if so?

More to the point Phil, having been totally penniless and having declared an intention to visit her daughter in Bermondsey to scrounge some money, (a daughter whom she knew full well had moved away), where did she get enough money to render herself so totally insensible with drink?

OK gin was cheap, but I'd guess Kate had, like most habitual drinkers, developed some resistance to it's effects...So how many tricks would she have had to turn to achieve that degree of drunkeness by 8.30pm? She wasn't THAT attractive, so where did the money come from? Who bought the drinks and why?

All the best

Dave

[Phil H]

so where did the money come from? Who bought the drinks and why?

A question that has puzzled me for years - and I have no answers.

I have a nagging feeling that if only we could solve some of these seemingly mundane questions/enigmas, we might achieve a break-through.

Was Stride on a date? Where did Polly get her bonnet? What happened to Chapman's rings? Was Kelly seen by Maxwell?

Phil H

[Cogidubnus]

Excellent questions Phil...echoing almost exactly those of my own...particularly the Stride one (for which I've been savaged in the past, but for which I personally think there's little doubt...but that's for another thread!)

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

While you're at it . . .

Hello Miakaal.

"Assuming JtR was still fleeing the Stride killing, would he have met her somewhere near Bishopsgate, and they wandered, slowly down toward Mitre Sq?"

Unlikely. Why? As you say, no food, no water, needing a wee wee. Not a good time to solicit.

Cheers.
LC