Where is Catherine?

[Wickerman]

Working our way a little closer to Eddowes release time of 1.00am , we have Packer closing early at 12.30 due to the wet weather.

Of course, as Jon has kindly noted, it was pi##ing down at 1.30am in Duke St

Hi Jon G.
Ah, Packer!, I'm encouraged to see you pick up on the correct time given by Packer.

The man who Packer saw, and the time he saw him, might be confirmed by P.C. Smith. We know Packer did not see Stride between 11:00-11:30 pm because she was at the Bricklayers Arms with 'Brighteyes'.

Where A.C.B. got the 11:00-11:30 times from in his summary is unclear but it was not from Packer. It appears Packer told the same story to Sergt. White as he told to the Evening News, that he closed up his business about 12:30 am "because of the rain".

Swanson did note that Packer was unreliable but this was likely because he told Sergt White that he had seen no-one and nothing suspicious, yet came out with a different story to the press.

The "internal" police confusion as to whether the time was 11:00-11:30 or 12:00-12:30 introduced by Carmichael-Bruce should probably lie with him alone, not attributable to Packer.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

Returning momentarily to Marshall's comments on the weather:

A Juryman: "How long were you standing at the door?" - "From 11.30 to 12."

The Juryman: "Did it rain then?" - "No, it did not rain until nearly 3 o'clock."

How did Marshall know at what time it started to rain again?

As for shop doorways, what you're most likely to find in one when it's raining is a policeman - sheltered, and a good spot from which to watch the world go by.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

What You Know

For once, Lechmere, I'm inclined to agree with you!!

On the other hand, if she knew who "Jack" was.. or someone was on the trail of Mary Jane Kelly....

Phil H

Hi Phil,

If she knew who Jack was, and if he knew that she knew, he would have been bricking it somewhat when he learned that she was at Bishopsgate Police Station.

Regards, Bridewell.

[miakaal4]

Well Abberline wouldn't have done that as he is Met, not City and had no authority as an CID Inspector.

However, enquiries were made, and Lewande and others cropped up.

I don't think you have grasped the area and nature of the homeless during that period.

Monty

I did say Abberline equivalent.
Well I do know that there were many people working to get stuff ready for the markets that were nearby. Its the weekend coming up. Thousands of prostitutes abroad, sailors late clubbers, and any service industry providing food and drinks to all this. I'd say it could have been quite busy.
What homeless? Eddows had a home.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Miakaal

But no-one was found. Despite the people working at night, the police, cab drivers etc. I strongly feel she must have been 'inside' somewhere. If that was true, then she may have met Jack there or nearby.

Possible I suppose, (and obviously an attractive thought to those who'd believe she had an agenda other than soliciting), but to be honest, shop doorways are perhaps just as likely a place of shelter...easy enough to move on, if you hear a flatfoot approaching...

All the best

Dave

[Monty]

Hi Monty,
Take your point, but at the risk of sounding pedantic, no I meant noticed. You see I (imagine) at some point soon after the discovery of C.E. some City police equivilant of Abberline would get all the officers on duty that night together and say,
Insp: "Eddows left here at 01.00 and walked toward the Square. Did anyone see her between 01.00 and 01.40?"
All cops together: "No Sir!"
Insp: "Well get out there and find someone who did!"
But no-one was found. Despite the people working at night, the police, cab drivers etc. I strongly feel she must have been 'inside' somewhere. If that was true, then she may have met Jack there or nearby.

Well Abberline wouldn't have done that as he is Met, not City and had no authority as an CID Inspector.

However, enquiries were made, and Lewande and others cropped up.

I don't think you have grasped the area and nature of the homeless during that period.

Monty

[miakaal4]

Hi Monty,
Take your point, but at the risk of sounding pedantic, no I meant noticed. You see I (imagine) at some point soon after the discovery of C.E. some City police equivilant of Abberline would get all the officers on duty that night together and say,
Insp: "Eddows left here at 01.00 and walked toward the Square. Did anyone see her between 01.00 and 01.40?"
All cops together: "No Sir!"
Insp: "Well get out there and find someone who did!"
But no-one was found. Despite the people working at night, the police, cab drivers etc. I strongly feel she must have been 'inside' somewhere. If that was true, then she may have met Jack there or nearby.

[miakaal4]

Regarding the rain, was there any cover in the Square?

[lynn cates]

forecast

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I have MANY doubts about the rain. Of course, I can't rule out a stray shower over Lawende's pub, and, yes, it was raining earlier.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Actually, he noted that Lawende remarked that he was in the club UNTIL 1.30, as it had been raining. If it were raining AT 1.30, why emerge then?

Indeed, Jon made the point that confirmed that it was raining in Aldgate prior to 1.33.

Lawende and co rose to leave at 1.30, they noticed it was raining and waited two or three minutes before leaving. Whether the rain had lessened or stopped in that three minute interval I don`t know, but it was certainly raining prior to 1.33am.

Yes, Packer seems to have been an unreliable witness but that was from his initial statement to Sgt White, and lying about the weather and when his shop closed, he surely did not.

Anyway , there is no doubt that it was raining.

Nice try, Lynn ;-)

[lynn cates]

Packer?

Hello Jon G. Thanks.

"Working our way a little closer to Eddowes release time of 1.00am, we have Packer closing early at 12.30 due to the wet weather."

Of course, if you read Swanson's report, he has that corrected to 11.30, no? At any rate, Packer was not a very reliable witness. Swanson used the phrase, "of no value."

"Of course, as Jon has kindly noted, it was pi##ing down at 1.30am in Duke St"

Actually, he noted that Lawende remarked that he was in the club UNTIL 1.30, as it had been raining. If it were raining AT 1.30, why emerge then?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

one for the road

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Personally, I would check. Some people look at the rain and assume it will go on. Great excuse for another round of drinks.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

You may wish to have another go at Marshall. (Evans and Skinner, p. 165)

Thanks for the tip! This is what Marshall said about the rain:

While I was standing at my door, from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all.

Working our way a little closer to Eddowes release time of 1.00am , we have Packer closing early at 12.30 due to the wet weather.

Of course, as Jon has kindly noted, it was pi##ing down at 1.30am in Duke St

[Monty]

Is that a reasonable question Miakaal?

The question should be, why wasnt she noted?

The answer is obvious.

Monty

[miakaal4]

Tea and sugar

In Sarah Wise book The Blackest Streets, she mentions a woman call "Lisa" who lived in Turville street Bethnal Green, just opposite the Old Nichol slums.
A Cornish woman, Lisa was also a fence and was known to give credit to those who were in the need.
Nothing to do with Cate, but I was envisaging that to avoid the "hiding" she was expecting, she might have gone to another "Lisa" somewhere near Mitre Sq, got some tea and sugar to take home and possibly placate with it. She could have got both if her credit was good. On her way home she runs into Jack?
What I would love to know is why she wasn't seen with Jack by any coppers, who seemed to be all over the Square half the night?