John's Echo Interview

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Kate took 2d to go to the Mile End Workhouse, there was a reason why she needed 2d, both Kate & John knew this, and it was not objected to in Court."

But also, Kate's tale about being released for a "bother" was not objected to. If she put down 2d as a straight transaction and could be discharged at will, why the story about a "bother" to justify her early release?

Cheers.
LC

Kate's body did have marks which preceded her death, the "bother" could only mean she got into a scuffle with someone. It doesn't mean she was turfed out before the regulations normally allowed. It may only mean she was turfed out earlier than she intended to leave.

If an inmate does not finish any assigned task, they are not let out until they do, the Institution assumes the inmate is in their debt. Throwing the inmate out prematurely means they get/got their keep for nothing.
That will not do!

So once again the circumstances are consistent with her not being assigned any tasks, which I must emphasize, normally took most of the day to conclude.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

tale

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Kate took 2d to go to the Mile End Workhouse, there was a reason why she needed 2d, both Kate & John knew this, and it was not objected to in Court."

But also, Kate's tale about being released for a "bother" was not objected to. If she put down 2d as a straight transaction and could be discharged at will, why the story about a "bother" to justify her early release?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Simon.

Hi Jon,

The casual ward did not operate a two-tier system.

I'm not so sure. On the one hand we have the "Official Poor Law" rules, but on the other hand we are looking for real-world applications. And it is a sad fact that these Workhouse Institutions had a focus on their finances.
Let us not forget this is the "do-as-you-please" part of town.
Turning away a paying "customer" who certainly is not about to get value for money, is looking a gift horse in the mouth. This is easy money, a few coppers in the "Master's" pocket, and who is going to report him?

Workhouses did charge exorbitant fees for medical services on the poor, even though it is well known that they didn't have a penny to their name. These records still exist.
Workhouses also took the 'estate' (however menial) of the inmate who died in their care, which meant any surviving family got nothing. This was the real world.

Kate took 2d to go to the Mile End Workhouse, there was a reason why she needed 2d, both Kate & John knew this, and it was not objected to in Court.
Therein we have a clue that the Workhouse was taking money off the poor.

Regards, Jon S.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

The casual ward did not operate a two-tier system.

Eddowes could not have bought herself out of a day of picking oakum.

Regards,

Simon

[Barnaby]

Alcohol

Kate was found on the street at 8 PM. To make the math easier, let's suppose she stopped drinking at 7:30 PM. From the description of her behavior, it sounds like Kate was on the verge of passing out. This puts her blood alcohol level probably somewhere between .15 and 0.3; for the sake of argument let's say 0.2. That's 2.5 times over the legal limit here in the U.S. (0.08).

Alcohol is metabolized at a constant rate. That's why the blood-alcohol level charts they post at bars tell you to substract 0.015 for every hour you have been drinking. If Kate didn't have another drink after her arrest, that leaves six hours from the time she stopped drinking to the time she was murdered.

Her blood alcohol level at the time of death would be about 0.09. She would not have appeared grossly impaired; this is consistent with the fact that they released her.

One wouldn't find alcohol in her stomach six hours later, assuming she didn't decide to eat the equivalent of a Thanksgiving dinner earlier in the day. Alcohol leaves the stomach very quickly. Some of it is directly absorbed into the blood stream; the rest quickly makes its way into the small intestine where it is absorbed into the bloodstream.

Using today's technology, yes we could detect alcohol in Kate's system quite easily. But it would not be obvious back then.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Eddowes having twopence would not have absolved her from picking oakum. Any amount of money under fourpence was taken away by the casual ward superintendent and returned on departure.

Simon.
What can you point to which allows us to be certain that her paying 2d for her keep would not keep her from picking oakum?
She is after-all not among the penniless for which these rules were written.

Hi Jon,

The casual ward certainly wasn't the Holiday Inn.

Tell me about it

Fishman provides an actual experience.
The unfortunate destitute, once admitted, is provided with a room 8 feet by 4 feet, at the end of which was a pit in the floor. His task is to break stone into chips in this room.
The room is lighted by a gas jet, but it is cold and unfurnished except for a mattress and a rug on which he sits. In the center of the room is a large block of stone and a hammer.
The man is locked in here for the night, his meals will consist of a tin cup containing 1/2 lb of gruel, and 8oz of bread for supper.
For breakfast he was given the same 1/2 lb of gruel and another 8oz of bread, and was then required to start work chipping the stone.
Later in the day he would be given a dinner consisting of another 8oz of bread and a 1/2 oz of cheese.

That was his bed and board for 24 hours.
Within that time he was expected to create 1100 lbs of stone chips, or he would be held for another 24 hours, but a full ton of chips would be expected as a consequence.

Fishman writes, all the time he lived afterwards, Joe never forgot his sensations when the casual wards closed after him,... "The ordeal, as intended, was sufficient deterrent to persuade the genuine unemployed and homeless to keep well away".

Regards, Jon S.
Fishman's source, Out of Work, 1888, John Law (pseudonym of Margaret Harkness).

[lynn cates]

casual wards

Hello Jon. Thanks. Are you suggesting that Kate did not have duties to perform? I believe you will find that she did. That was the idea behind casual wards--as Fishman indicates.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

Sorry, you're misreading things.

If you could pay for your bed and board you were not admitted to the casual ward.

It's as simple as that.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Why would there be no tasks assigned?

The Poor Law under which these rules are applied pertain to those who cannot pay for their bed & board, that is why tasks are required as a means of repaying for their keep.

Regards, Jon S.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

The casual ward certainly wasn't the Holiday Inn.

Here's something about London [Metropolitan] casual wards I found in a House of Commons Civil Service Supply Estimates debate on 6th November 1888—



Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

Eddowes having twopence would not have absolved her from picking oakum. Any amount of money under fourpence was taken away by the casual ward superintendent and returned on departure. However, had she had fourpence in her pocket she would have been refused admission.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

behaviour

Hello Jon. Why would there be no tasks assigned? A jury member cried foul at John's testimony and insisted there would be tasks to do. That is when John noted that it was early and he was surprised. Then he added the story about the bother that allowed early release.

Suspicious? How about incongruent?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Simon.

Hi Lynn,

The Casual Poor Act 1882 stated that "A casual pauper shall not be entitled to discharge himself from a casual ward before nine o'clock in the morning of the second day following his admission."

Does the Casual Poor Act say anything about the act only being applicable to those who cannot pay for their bed & board?
What about those who can pay?

If Eddowes had stayed at the Mile End Casual Ward on the night of Friday 28th September, she would not have been discharged until 9.00 am on Sunday 30th September and thus missed her appointment with fate in Mitre Square.

Fishman (East End 1888) makes a few passing observations about Casual Wards.
Fishman (p.87) explains that the Casual Ward was the ancillary to the Workhouse. He writes: The latter (Casual Ward) was open to penniless and homeless men and women on the tramp seeking a nights 'kip' in the 'spike'.

He also adds:
"Walter Besant confirmed that next to incarceration in the workhouse itself, the casual ward was 'a place where no one will go if he can possibly avoid it' "

Once admitted to a Casual Ward the unfortunate soul will be assigned one of two tasks, either to break rocks into chips with a hammer, or pick oakum.
This was necessary in lieu of payment for food and shelter.
He/she is required to make half a ton (1100 lbs) of stone chips, or pick 4 lbs of oakum.
These tasks often took most of the day.

According to John Kelly, they both spent Thursday night at Shoe-lane Casual Ward, where presumably they were assigned tasks to pay for their food & bed, because on Thursday they had no money.
Which is possibly why he then said "we were together all Friday until the afternoon", at which point he would have been able to leave and earn some money on the outside. He earned 6d Friday afternoon.

So, Friday night Eddowes insisted John take 4d and go to Cooney's, while Kate takes 2d and goes to the Mile End Casual Ward (or Workhouse?).
Because Eddowes had the price of bed & board (2d), she would not have been assigned any tasks, she was not covered by the Poor Law rules, so presumably she could also leave at her convenience.

Is there anything here (anyone?) that is suspicious?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

alarm

Hello Colin. Thanks. That would work.

But I wonder whether that would not have alarmed her?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Kate's Left

Hello Richard. Thanks.

I am hesitant about the bloke being on Kate's left. Perhaps he changed sides at the take down?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Perhaps he shoved her arm up her back and was actually standing on her right?

Regards, Bridewell.