Kate's Last Half Hour

[Leanne]

Im not sure whether you meant the above to read as it does, but if you did, the kill and all the mutilations...colon cutting, face cutting, apron cutting, excising organs, ...yada yada...took what, 5 minutes?

DR. FREDERICK GORDON BROWN:
[Coroner] How long would it take to make the wounds? - It might be done in five minutes. It might take him longer; but that is the least time it could be done in.

[Leanne]

I don't think that either K&T warehouse existed in Buck's Row at the time of the murder. The first wasn't built until the mid 1890's, the second around the turn of the century, if I recall.
They did have a factory just to the north, off Thomas St, but again I think that post-dates the murder, circa 1890. I would welcome clarification on that though.

What was pulled down so they could build the new warehouse?

[Michael W Richards]

Lawende and co. saw her and "sailor-man" at 1:35 am, they waited until Watkins passed (it probably took him 5 or 6 minutes to shine his torch in each corner that's why the two waited outside), then they entered the square for a quicky, knowing they had 14 minutes until he reached the square again .

Im not sure whether you meant the above to read as it does, but if you did, the kill and all the mutilations...colon cutting, face cutting, apron cutting, excising organs, ...yada yada...took what, 5 minutes? That's including time it took him to get her to the spot. Or do you think he was still there when Harvey did or didn't look in? And I see that you think Kate knew him but hadn't planned to see him there? She just bumps into someone she knows at 1:30am in the square mile-ish that is the City of London?

[Leanne]

To me, it's more plausible that a serial killer would change his MO a bit from killing to killing than some Irishman who had presumably never butchered a woman on the streets of London before would do it so well and so quietly on his first attempt.

What Irishman are we talking about?

[Damaso Marte]

To me, it's more plausible that a serial killer would change his MO a bit from killing to killing than some Irishman who had presumably never butchered a woman on the streets of London before would do it so well and so quietly on his first attempt.

[Leanne]

I don't think that either K&T warehouse existed in Buck's Row at the time of the murder. The first wasn't built until the mid 1890's, the second around the turn of the century, if I recall.
They did have a factory just to the north, off Thomas St, but again I think that post-dates the murder, circa 1890. I would welcome clarification on that though.

I don't see a connection between the killer and Kearley and Tonges specifically
. I see a connection between the killer and warehouses that he may have hidden in. Warehouses that he may have been able to walk through before hand, and had a chance of being open to buyers and costermongers during the early hours before daybreak.

The early branches of K&T traded under the name of 'International Tea Co.' The earliest price list on record is dated 1st January 1889.

[Leanne]

Agreed on that Leanne. I see the hand on the chest gesture as one of relief or gratitude, I believe it may indicate she was grateful he waited for her. Again though, Im not convinced this sighting is valid. I don't imagine that the killer, if the same as Annies, worked much differently in terms of overall speed, and the darkness in the square and the shorter period of time could account for the sloppiness I see that wasn't there in previous kills. To me that suggests that the time needed would exceed what is available from the Lawende sighting at 1:35 to the discovery at 1:44. He could have come in just after Watkins earlier pass and had plenty of time, if Harvey didn't look in,...which I believe was the case that night.

I a don't think for a minute that she arranged to meet him.

[Joshua Rogan]

Kearley and Tonge in Bucks Row

I don't think that either K&T warehouse existed in Buck's Row at the time of the murder. The first wasn't built until the mid 1890's, the second around the turn of the century, if I recall.
They did have a factory just to the north, off Thomas St, but again I think that post-dates the murder, circa 1890. I would welcome clarification on that though.

[Leanne]

If Lawende saw another couple, WHERE WAS KATE AND JACK?????????

[Leanne]

Agreed on that Leanne. I see the hand on the chest gesture as one of relief or gratitude, I believe it may indicate she was grateful he waited for her. Again though, Im not convinced this sighting is valid. I don't imagine that the killer, if the same as Annies, worked much differently in terms of overall speed, and the darkness in the square and the shorter period of time could account for the sloppiness I see that wasn't there in previous kills. To me that suggests that the time needed would exceed what is available from the Lawende sighting at 1:35 to the discovery at 1:44. He could have come in just after Watkins earlier pass and had plenty of time, if Harvey didn't look in,...which I believe was the case that night.

Lawende and co. saw her and "sailor-man" at 1:35 am, they waited until Watkins passed (it probably took him 5 or 6 minutes to shine his torch in each corner that's why the two waited outside), then they entered the square for a quicky, knowing they had 14 minutes until he reached the square again .

[Leanne]

Here's another. If he had in-depth knowledge of the police beats, why didn't he simply avoid them? Sure, one could argue that he did so with Chapman, Stride and Kelly... but why not also Nichols and Eddowes?

I've just tried to work out the beat of Edward Watkins using his inquest testimony and it's giving me a headache.

He first says his beat lasted from 10p.m. Saturday to 1 am Sunday.
Then he says he passed through Mitre Square at 1:30, and re-entered it at 1:44. (that's 14 minutes) when he discovered the body.
BUT HIS REGULAR BEAT WAS OVER AT 1:00AM!!!! WAS HE DOING OVER-TIME?

And if his beat usually took him 14 minutes, Then the killer knew he only had 10 minutes to do the deed and 4 minutes to hide. How long would it take him to run to the open doorway and hide in the basement?

So the killer obviously had in-depth knowledge of the police beat.

[Michael W Richards]

I think it's very likely "sailor man" was someone she knew and expected to be in the area, and even more likely that she didn't suspect him, but felt comfortable/safe.

Agreed on that Leanne. I see the hand on the chest gesture as one of relief or gratitude, I believe it may indicate she was grateful he waited for her. Again though, Im not convinced this sighting is valid. I don't imagine that the killer, if the same as Annies, worked much differently in terms of overall speed, and the darkness in the square and the shorter period of time could account for the sloppiness I see that wasn't there in previous kills. To me that suggests that the time needed would exceed what is available from the Lawende sighting at 1:35 to the discovery at 1:44. He could have come in just after Watkins earlier pass and had plenty of time, if Harvey didn't look in,...which I believe was the case that night.

[Leanne]

Kearley and Tonge in Bucks Row:

[Leanne]

Here's another. If he had in-depth knowledge of the police beats, why didn't he simply avoid them? Sure, one could argue that he did so with Chapman, Stride and Kelly... but why not also Nichols and Eddowes?

He was able to hide wasn't he?
There was a Kearley and Tonge warehouse near the Nichols murder scene and one in Mitre Square.

[Sam Flynn]

There is one fly in the ointment with the presumption of the killers knowledge of the beat cops...

Here's another. If he had in-depth knowledge of the police beats, why didn't he simply avoid them? Sure, one could argue that he did so with Chapman, Stride and Kelly... but why not also Nichols and Eddowes?