Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Trevor Marriott]

Its easy to sit and say that behind a desk, but in a dark square in a height of frenzy, with the need to be alert, trying to locate the organs in a blood filled abdomen and trying to grip them to be able to remove them all with a long bladed knife, and having killed, what made the killer decide to remove the organs ? Some will say as a trophy but in that case why take two, bearing in mind he is supposed to already had a uterus which was removed intact from Chapman. It doesn't all seem logical or viable.

So I will stick with my theory

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[Trevor Marriott]

You don't to know the exact position, only the approximate position. Once there, pull the intestines out of the way, fish around for and grab the kidney, pull it up a little, make a cut in the membrane and pass your knife through the "strings" holding the organ to the body, and - voilà! - you've removed it. It would only take seconds; certainly much less than half a minute.

But thats the point you cannot simply reach in and take hold of the kidney because its sits flush in the renal fat as shown in the photo.

Dont forget the killer did not have any retractors to hold the walls of the abdomen open to be able to work in such a confined space. So he would have been working simply by feeling. For the purpose of the original exercise relative to the photos retractors were used.

The other photo shows the uterus with fallopian tubes attached. Now i would ask you and all the others who still believe that the killer removed these organs with anatomical knowledge in the time allotted to seriously re think yours and theirs position on this.

Mr Neale states "Although the removal of the uterus from Chapman looks to have been done in haste, whereas the removal of the organs from Eddowes looks to have been done in less haste"

Not consistent with someone in a hurry !

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[Sam Flynn]

But thats the point you cannot simply reach in and take hold of the kidney because its sits flush in the renal fat as shown in the photo.

So use your knife and hands to get the renal fat out of the way; it would only take mere seconds. Soft tissue hardly constitutes an impenetrable barrier.

And, again, if the "nephrectomy" had been conducted in better conditions, one would have expected a better job to have been done, without puncturing the liver, pancreas and spleen. One would also have expected more than just one kidney to be removed. One would not expect only part of the uterus to have been successfully taken out. Everything about what happened to Eddowes indicates that the perpetrator was acting quickly, and in less-than-ideal circumstances.

[Trevor Marriott]

So use your knife and hands to get the renal fat out of the way; it would only take mere seconds. Soft tissue hardly constitutes an impenetrable barrier.

And, again, if the "nephrectomy" had been conducted in better conditions, one would have expected a better job to have been done, without puncturing the liver, pancreas and spleen. One would also have expected more than just one kidney to be removed. One would not expect only part of the uterus to have been successfully taken out. Everything about what happened to Eddowes indicates that the perpetrator was acting quickly, and in less-than-ideal circumstances.

Sam
I respect your input, but I am going to stick with the experts and the results of the mortuary tests condcucted and photos taken as shown to either prove or disprove this issue

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

So use your knife and hands to get the renal fat out of the way; it would only take mere seconds. Soft tissue hardly constitutes an impenetrable barrier.

And, again, if the "nephrectomy" had been conducted in better conditions, one would have expected a better job to have been done, without puncturing the liver, pancreas and spleen. One would also have expected more than just one kidney to be removed. One would not expect only part of the uterus to have been successfully taken out. Everything about what happened to Eddowes indicates that the perpetrator was acting quickly, and in less-than-ideal circumstances.

The puncture wounds to the organs as described were clearly done when she was stabbed through her abdomen at the outset.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

The puncture wounds to the organs as described were clearly done when she was stabbed through her abdomen at the outset.

You are not going to cut the spleen (let alone its lower border) or make a vertical slit on the left lobe of the liver by making an incision down the midline of the body.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam
I respect your input, but I am going to stick with the experts and the results of the mortuary tests condcucted and photos taken as shown to either prove or disprove this issue

Showing us a photograph of soft tissue doesn't make it more difficult to clear away, Trevor. A good tug with the hand and a half-decent knife would make short shrift of that surrounding tissue, enabling the kidney to be extracted in seconds... and if you really knew what you were after, I daresay you could almost do it blindfold.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Trevor,

The doctors both Victorian and modern day clearly don't agree with you, because they refer to anatomical knowledge, and I refer to the fact that two different methods of extraction used on two different victims, would a butcher have that knowledge or expertise, no he wouldn't so stop trying to flog that dead horse, sheep, or pig.

And I do not have the time, or the inclination to keep going over the same points when you clearly have your own agenda and are not perpared to listen

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I am listening, but I'm not sure I could say the same for you in return. If you had been, you would realize I did not invent the time window, and I don't have any agenda (other than understanding the events as they happened). I looked at the evidence we have, the testimony of when Lawende and Levey left the club based upon the rain stopping. The crime scene evidence indicates the murder happened after the rain stopped. We have two people indicating the rain stopped sometime between 1:33 and 1:35, so we know the earliest possible time for the murder to happen - just after the rain stopped between 1:33 and 1:35. We know PC Harris patrolled between 1:41 and 1:42, and we both agree that JtR in all likelihood left no later than that point in time. So we know the murder was complete by 1:41 and 1:42. Considering all of that evidence, that means we have the time window for the murder of a duration of 6-9 minutes. That's not me making it up, that's me reading the evidence and doing a bit of math. It's not me having an agenda, it's me sticking to the facts we have and not dismisising them when they don't agree with what I believe - rather, when that happens, I change what I believe to accomodate the new evidence. But only after carefully evaluating it. I can't evaluate your opinion that there wasn't enough time because you don't know how much time was required, as you just said above. So if you don't know how much time was required, how can you claim there wasn't enough time? That's nonsensical, hence, I set that opinion aside as unreliable.

And you keep confusing "anatomical knowledge" with medical knowledge despite the inquest testimony where the testimony specifically says that a butcher and/or slaughterman would have sufficient anatomical knowledge to do what was done. That's not me with an agenda, that's me reading what was said. So again, when you state your opinion that it couldn't be a butcher or slaughterman because it required anatomical knowledge that a butcher or slaughterman would have, I realize that's nonsensical, and I put that opinion aside as unreliable.

So again, I come back to the evidence that tells us things, meaning there are some things we know, like the things that let us know roughtly when the rain stopped, that let us know roughly when PC Harris patrolled Church Passage, that let us know the organs were missing (including Kelly's heart), that let us know there was a couple at the Duke Street End of Church Passage before the murder, and not after it, and that they could have (not saying did) been Eddowes and JtR. By putting together what we know, we start to understand what happened. By simply adding in what ifs and maybes, consistently misinterpreting key phrases, and dismissing evidence that interferes with a good story, well, that's not for me.

- Jeff

[packers stem]

Sam to be honest with all the years I have been on this and all the medical experts I have come across. I still dont know the exact position of the kidney to be able to open someone up and be able to find it, and then figure out how to remove it especially in the dark. I am told it is the most difficult of all the organs to locate and remove. It is an organ that you cannot locate by feel alone because of how it sits within the renal fat. So that alone would be a problem, working at speed with a long knife in a blood filled abdomen.

Mr Neal states that it is not the time that would be taken to remove it. It is the time taken to locate it, and to figure out how to remove it.

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How I would love every anatomical genius here to be able to demonstrate it for us all ,suitably blindfold ,at a future conference .
Maybe a training dummy of sorts ..... lol

This whole thread just proves that there are so many out there blinded by the idea that your average builder could carry out an operation they will continue to argue any point , no matter the level of evidence placed before then.
If science was like ripperology we would never have progressed beyond the wheel

[JeffHamm]

Really ?
you're suggesting that people carried lanterns with them as a matter of course ?
some I'm sure , police certainly , general public ,I think not .
and I can't stress this highly enough .
He was not present ! Not until after the body was discovered

I was talking about the police lanterns. The police were there when Dr. Sequeira arrived. It's not hard for them to move the lanterns away so they could inspect the scene and what the lighting conditions were on the very night.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

How I would love every anatomical genius here to be able to demonstrate it for us all ,suitably blindfold ,at a future conference .
Maybe a training dummy of sorts ..... lol

This whole thread just proves that there are so many out there blinded by the idea that your average builder could carry out an operation they will continue to argue any point , no matter the level of evidence placed before then.
If science was like ripperology we would never have progressed beyond the wheel

Where in the world did you get builder from packers stem? The entire discussion has been focused on doctors and professions that remove the organs from animals? If you're builder has been doing that, I recommend you get a different one.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

^^^
Besides, builders need to be precise. There's nothing in the manner of Eddowes' death or evisceration that required any precision at all. Just look at the drawings and photographs, and read the inquest testimony and post mortem notes.

[Trevor Marriott]

You are not going to cut the spleen (let alone its lower border) or make a vertical slit on the left lobe of the liver by making an incision down the midline of the body.

The knife was stabbed in her and then drawn down and across making several different wounds at different angles

You also have to take on board the fact that if the organs were removed in haste at the mortuary as i suggest additional internal injuries may have occurred which when the post mortem was done were then attributed to the killer

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[packers stem]

Hi packers stem,



Where in the world did you get builder from packers stem? The entire discussion has been focused on doctors and professions that remove the organs from animals? If you're builder has been doing that, I recommend you get a different one.

- Jeff

Jeff , the point being that too many people have convinced themselves that absolutely no knowledge of anything anatomical was necessary ....
This has been going on for years , hence they will fight anything.
You accept some sort of dissection experience.
Most will not
I don't agree with you as the anatomy is different but at least you're not trying to pin it on a barber

[Sam Flynn]

The knife was stabbed in her and then drawn down and across making several different wounds at different angles

Nothing remotely like that appears anywhere in the evidence - and I include the photographs in that.

Besides, you simply can't cut the spleen in that manner; it's way over to the left and obscured by the stomach and ribs. If you tried to cut to the lower part of the spleen by poking a knife through a midline abdominal incision you'd puncture the stomach.

Likewise, if you're using the knife in the manner you suggest, then you can't cut the pancreas to the left of the spinal column without also puncturing the stomach, because the pancreas lies behind it.