Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[jerryd]

The Square was City property, Harvey was a Met. constable.

Jon,

Harvey was a City Constable. PC 964 City. You know that, right?

[jerryd]

That's interesting.

When/where was that reported?

Pall Mall Gazette
2 October 1888

In connection with the Mitre-square murder a startling discovery was made. Sergeant Dudman had his attention drawn to 36, Mitre-street a house a short distance from the spot where the murdered woman was found, and there he found what appeared to be bloodstains upon the doorway and underneath the window, as if a person had wiped his finger on the windowledge and draw a blood-stained knife down part of the doorway. Mr Hartig, who lives on the premises, said he had only just noticed the stains, and then quite by accident.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Jeff, Yes im well aware of of the light factor and how it works, but respectfully disagree . Only two possibilities as far as im concerned . Either Harvey stood on that spot at 1.40 and saw Eddows and her killer in the act, or they weren't there. But not both, im afraid one is wrong. As i cant find Harveys exact quote saying he went as far down church passage to mitre square ill say he is . just my thoughts

[FISHY1118]

Having said that ,for the same reason Harvey is wrong i think Lawende is also possible wrong as he could not 100% identify the women he saw as Eddows ,and no one reportedly saw a man and a women walk down church passage or st James passage for that matter and into mitre square from 1.35 onwards. There for in my view Enddows entered the square from mitre street at no earlier than 1.33AM , after Watkins had finished his inspection to continue his route again .

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

Hi Jeff, Yes im well aware of of the light factor and how it works, but respectfully disagree . Only two possibilities as far as im concerned . Either Harvey stood on that spot at 1.40 and saw Eddows and her killer in the act, or they weren't there.

I think we'll have to disagree on that. While the exact time for PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage is unknown, it will be in the vicinity of 1:40 based upon what we do know. There isn't time for Eddowes and JtR to enter Mitre Square, have the murder occur, and JtR to flee after 1:40, so Eddowes, at the very least, was there when PC Harvey did his patrol, and he didn't see her. We don't know why he didn't see her for sure, but given how vision works, it does not need a very complicated explanation, the gas lamp limited his vision into the darkest corner of Mitre Square (and Eddowes was wearing black after all). Other explanations could be he didn't walk right to the very end, but just far enough to ensure nothing amiss in the passage that was part of his beat, and turned around, and so forth. If JtR were there as well, the latter makes more intuitive sense, though the limited night vision could also mean he didn't see JtR (we know he didn't after all, we're not trying to work out whether or not he saw them, rather understand how he missed at the very least Eddowes; then trying to see if JtR could have, not had to have been, there - it's just possible he could have). But, I'm generally of the view that JtR would have fled once PC Harvey started up Church Passage (or when Morris opened his door if that came first), and his flight would not have been noticed due to the gas lamp.

But not both, im afraid one is wrong. As i cant find Harveys exact quote saying he went as far down church passage to mitre square ill say he is . just my thoughts

Wickerman posts PC Harvey's statement on the previous page (post 249 I think).

But yes, if Lawende and Levy are wrong, and that wasn't Eddowes at the end of Church Passage, then clearly she entered from somewhere, so Mitre Street would be possible. We just have no evidence to support that, and it relies on dismissing a tentative identification of a couple who are in an appropriate location at an appropriate time interacting in a way that is not inconsistent with a prostitute and client waiting for the square to be safe to use. I recognize that's not proof it was Eddowes, but if we test the hypothesis that it was then all the evidence that we do have fails to refute it. And we have no other direct evidence of any other male/female couples in the vicinity at the time (that I can think of - I most certainly could be wrong on that. The Blenkinsop statement doesn't mention couples specifically, so while that could include couples it doesn't have to, it's just too vague and general)

Anyway, as I say, we all have to weigh the evidence and see where it leads us, and that in the end will involve a certain amount of subjectivity. Not saying you're wrong just because you draw a different conclusion than I do.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Hi Jeff, Yes im well aware of of the light factor and how it works, but respectfully disagree . Only two possibilities as far as im concerned . Either Harvey stood on that spot at 1.40 and saw Eddows and her killer in the act, or they weren't there. But not both, im afraid one is wrong. As i cant find Harveys exact quote saying he went as far down church passage to mitre square ill say he is . just my thoughts

From the Times coverage of the inquest, a juryman made a statement as to when PC Harvey was in the passage.


Constable James Harvey (964 City police) stated that at a quarter to 10 o'clock on the night of the 29th ult., he went on his beat, which he described, and which took in Mitre-street. He saw no suspicious person about while on his beat, and he heard no cry or any noise. When he got into Aldgate, returning towards Duke-street, he heard a whistle, and saw the witness Morris with a lamp. The latter, in answer to witness, said that a woman had been ripped up in Mitre-square. Witness saw a constable on the other side of the street. They went to Mitre-square, where they saw Watkins with the body of the deceased. The constable who followed witness went for Dr. Sequeira, and private persons were dispatched for other constables, who arrived almost immediately, having heard the whistle. Witness waited there with Watkins, and information was at once sent to the inspector. As witness passed the post-office clock at Aldgate on his beat it was between one and two minutes to half-past 1 o'clock.
By a juryman. - His beat took him down Church-passage to the end. He was there three or four minutes before he heard the whistle; it was then about 18 or 19 minutes to 2 o'clock.

Harvey would have passed the Post Office clock twice while in Aldgate. Once after leaving Church Passage, heading down Duke Street to Aldgate (1st time) and again after turning down Aldgate, heading toward Leadenhall and looping back passing the Post Office enroute to Houndsditch.

So when he says it was one or two minutes to half past 1 o'clock when he passed the post office clock, that could mean on either pass. If it were the pass after just leaving the passage, that means he was at Church Passage the first time around 1:26 (according to the PO clock) or slightly earlier if he already passed the clock once and was heading back up to Houndsditch.

He states he saw no one. So the mysterious couple was NOT in Church Passage (at least visible) shortly before 1:30 (Again, using his timing of the PO clock). So, where did they come from? It was raining hard enough to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club at 1:30.

There is a report in two newspapers that state Watkins was handing George Morris a cup of tea at 1:30 and telling him to make it warm in 10 minutes time when he would return. If it was raining hard, perhaps Watkins took cover with Morris for a few minutes and headed straight into St James Passage to make up for lost time on his beat?

[JeffHamm]

Hi jerryd,

From the Times coverage of the inquest, a juryman made a statement as to when PC Harvey was in the passage.


Constable James Harvey (964 City police) stated that at a quarter to 10 o'clock on the night of the 29th ult., he went on his beat, which he described, and which took in Mitre-street. He saw no suspicious person about while on his beat, and he heard no cry or any noise. When he got into Aldgate, returning towards Duke-street, he heard a whistle, and saw the witness Morris with a lamp. The latter, in answer to witness, said that a woman had been ripped up in Mitre-square. Witness saw a constable on the other side of the street. They went to Mitre-square, where they saw Watkins with the body of the deceased. The constable who followed witness went for Dr. Sequeira, and private persons were dispatched for other constables, who arrived almost immediately, having heard the whistle. Witness waited there with Watkins, and information was at once sent to the inspector. As witness passed the post-office clock at Aldgate on his beat it was between one and two minutes to half-past 1 o'clock.
By a juryman. - His beat took him down Church-passage to the end. He was there three or four minutes before he heard the whistle; it was then about 18 or 19 minutes to 2 o'clock.

Harvey would have passed the Post Office clock twice while in Aldgate. Once after leaving Church Passage, heading down Duke Street to Aldgate (1st time) and again after turning down Aldgate, heading toward Leadenhall and looping back passing the Post Office enroute to Houndsditch.

So when he says it was one or two minutes to half past 1 o'clock when he passed the post office clock, that could mean on either pass. If it were the pass after just leaving the passage, that means he was at Church Passage the first time around 1:26 (according to the PO clock) or slightly earlier if he already passed the clock once and was heading back up to Houndsditch.

18 or 19 minutes to 2 o'clock would be 1:38 or 1:39, so 8 or 9 minutes past 1:30, both very close to the estimated 1:40, certainly without knowing the synchornization between PC Watkins clock and the post-office clock, those aren't really inconsistent. This sounds like the time he would have been patrolling the passage after/during the murder, so if the Church Passage couple isn't there, wouldn't that be consistent with the couple being Eddowes and JtR? Or are we saying that it is more reasonable to argue that a male/female couple spotted at an entrance to Mitre Square at a time that could be before the murder, who were not there at a time consistent with the murder having taken place, where we also have a tentative identification of the woman (based upon her clothes), and whose behaviour is consistent with a couple waiting for the Square to be clear of the just previously patrolling PC, should be dismissed in favour of the possibility that there was another couple, whom nobody reports, entering through one of the other entrances, that nobody saw anybody go through (one of which, of course, is Mitre Street, for which we have no witness statements one way or the other except for PC Watckins).

Again, I know it's possible the Church Passage couple wasn't Eddowes, the identification is very weak, but so far, none of the evidence we have precludes them, and everything one would have to predict (i.e. if it's Eddowes and JtR they shouldn't still be there at 1:38-39, if they were, I would argue that can't be Eddowes as there isn't time enough left for the murder after that - it had to have happened already, or be in the process of happening).

He states he saw no one. So the mysterious couple was NOT in Church Passage (at least visible) shortly before 1:30 (Again, using his timing of the PO clock). So, where did they come from? It was raining hard enough to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club at 1:30.

I think you've misread that - 18-19 minutes to 2 is 1:38-1:39, which is not shortly before 1:30.

There is a report in two newspapers that state Watkins was handing George Morris a cup of tea at 1:30 and telling him to make it warm in 10 minutes time when he would return. If it was raining hard, perhaps Watkins took cover with Morris for a few minutes and headed straight into St James Passage to make up for lost time on his beat?

Maybe. And if he's talking to Morris, and then walking to St. James Place as you suggest, if that was all audible to the couple at the end of Church Passage, that could be what they're waiting for, listening for when he leaves. Mind you, that whole conversation, even if it took place, would take a few seconds as he would just have to open the door and stick his head in and say "Make me a cup of tea would you George, I'll be back around in 10 minutes for it" and given his beat was 12-14 minutes, that wouldn't be unreasonable, particularly if it was raining and he's chilled. I doubt he would have to re-divert to St. James to make up for something like that as a bit of hustle and bustle out of square and up Mitre Street would do it, if he could even be bothered to worry about that. They weren't punching cards each beat after all, it was 1888 not 2018 after all!

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Hi Jeff,

I wasn't clear. I apologize. At the inquest, PC Harvey was asked when he was last in Aldgate (prior to his stated visit up the passage around murder time or 1:40/42). He stated he passed the Post Office clock at 2 minutes before 1:30 (1:28). I was referring to this previous visit to the passage before the one talked about at inquest.. That would have been in the 1:26ish area.

[GUT]

18 or 19 minutes to 2 o'clock would be 1:38 or 1:39


No itd be 1:41 or 42.

[jerryd]

I doubt he would have to re-divert to St. James to make up for something like that as a bit of hustle and bustle out of square and up Mitre Street would do it, if he could even be bothered to worry about that. They weren't punching cards each beat after all, it was 1888 not 2018 after all!

- Jeff

The news report makes it sound as if he already checked the square when he handed Morris the can of tea.

[JeffHamm]

The news report makes it sound as if he already checked the square when he handed Morris the can of tea.

Hi jerryd,

Yes, I would think he would stick his head in as he was leaving Mitre Square, which he patrolled at 1:30, which is also why I think he would then just continue out of Mitre Square and into Mitre Street. If this happened, it would be on starting the last beat before he finds Eddowes at 1:44.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

18 or 19 minutes to 2 o'clock would be 1:38 or 1:39


No itd be 1:41 or 42.

Doh, yes, of course. Sigh.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi jerryd,

Hi Jeff,

I wasn't clear. I apologize. At the inquest, PC Harvey was asked when he was last in Aldgate (prior to his stated visit up the passage around murder time or 1:40/42). He stated he passed the Post Office clock at 2 minutes before 1:30 (1:28). I was referring to this previous visit to the passage before the one talked about at inquest.. That would have been in the 1:26ish area.

Ah, sorry, got you now. Well, that sounds like the couple wasn't there for a long time prior to when Lawende and Levy see them there, and we know they aren't there when PC Harvey next makes his round (1:41-2 ish by the post-office clock; if you check the 1st post in this thread, you'll see that 1:40 has him just entering Church Passage, and 1:41 he would be exiting, which fits with the above quite well I think). That would be consistent with the couple arriving shortly before 1:30ish, waiting for PC Watkins to finish his patrol of the Square, then entering it when he's left. It's not proof that is what happened of course, but it is consistent with the behaviour of a prostitute taking a customer to a secluded area to conduct business. Again, all I'm saying is that the little evidence we have is entirely consistent with that and doesn't create any real problems. There are unknowns, as in where were they before arriving at Church Passage (I believe some have suggested there was a nearby location that was commonly used by prostitutes to find customers, and then head off somewhere, but I can't recall the details? I seem to think it was a church, but that could be a false memory). Regardless, it does allow us to suggest it wasn't a couple spending a long time in that location (as in a 30 minute lover's pause for pecks and cuddles), but where they came from can only be speculated upon. We know they had to have come from somewhere though, and apparently weren't there at 1:26, were there between 1:33 and 1:35, and not there again around 1:41-2.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

The whole Eddows Lawende Harvey scenario just doesn't work for me im afraid, to many unknown factors on what was said and seen and what wasn't .And for all that to work and it just doesn't fit no matter what way you juggle it. We still have to accept that JTR did all that mutilation placing body parts all around in just five/six minutes all in the dark without anybody hearing or seeing a thing. Constable Richard Pearce, 922 City: I reside at No. 3, Mitre-square. [Coroner] From your bedroom window could you see the spot where the murder was committed? - Yes, quite plainly. Distance ? ...15 metres yes very unusual but not impossible .Eddows entry to Mitre square at 1.33, far more easier to work out what happen to 1.43

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

The whole Eddows Lawende Harvey scenario just doesn't work for me im afraid, to many unknown factors on what was said and seen and what wasn't .And for all that to work and it just doesn't fit no matter what way you juggle it. We still have to accept that JTR did all that mutilation placing body parts all around in just five/six minutes all in the dark without anybody hearing or seeing a thing. Constable Richard Pearce, 922 City: I reside at No. 3, Mitre-square. [Coroner] From your bedroom window could you see the spot where the murder was committed? - Yes, quite plainly. Distance ? ...15 metres yes very unusual but not impossible .Eddows entry to Mitre square at 1.33, far more easier to work out what happen to 1.43

Well, we know nobody heard anything, and we know he did all that in a very limited amount of time. We also know he did far worse than with Chapman, he mangled the uterus (I think he only took away 2/3rds of it) and made a mess with the faeces, etc. But Mitre Square was dark, and Chapman's murder had the morning light coming up, and so, a messier crime scene. And 1:33 is probably the earliest he could have entered, Levy's estimate was a sighting at 1:33, and that clock and PC Watkin's clock could easily differ by a minute or two. It's pushing things to the minimum time to enter, but it is in the time window that is consistent with the evidence. Later works as we have contemporary medical opinion of 5 minutes required, and modern estimates suggest even less. We have events that could trigger his exit occurring at times that would allow him to exit without being spotted by PC Watkins. We've got testimony that possibly places Eddowes at the entrance of Church Passage before the crime needs to have occurred, and testimony that indicates that couple wasn't there at a time when the murder had to have occurred, and we have testimony that indicates they weren't hanging out in that spot for long, but were there at the time PC Watkins was just patrolling Mitre Square the beat before the murder.

To be honest, from the contributions of everyone during these discussions, I'm impressed by how much we do have. I know it's not definitive, but as we put all the various statements and sources together, there's nothing obviously wrong with the most popular suggestion, which is that the Church Passage couple was Eddowes and JtR, and she was killed shortly after PC Watkin's left Mitre Square and JtR fled a few minutes before he returned. Whether that was before or because of PC Harvey is open for speculation as Morris could have opened the door before PC Harvey arrives (and that would negate any need to explain why PC Harvey doesn't see JtR in the corner, though that too can be explained by the impairment of his vision due to the gas lamp).

It's not proof, though, but the evidence we have is consistent with that. To throw it out as the best hypothesis we have in order to substitute in a hypothesis for which there is no supporting evidence would be uncalled for under the circumstances. I would suggest that this is probably our "best" explanation, and that others are just speculations on what the alternative might be should the best hypothesis be, in truth, wrong. (note, the best explanation is not always correct, it's best only in the sense that it best fits all the data - but if the data is wrong, as in the tentative identification was in error, that means the couple wasn't Eddowes and JtR, and that would pull the legs out from this explanation. Problem is, there's no way for us to know if that identification was or was not correct.)

- Jeff