Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Simon Wood]

Quite possibly.

You wouldn't want late night stragglers from the Imperial Club wandering down Church Passage into Mitre Square and interrupting the proceedings.

[Michael W Richards]

There's no point in asking who they were Simon, witnesses don't come forward as a rule. Even Lawende had to be sought out. This idea that "If the witness existed, or was innocent, they would have come forward, is a load of hogwash".
People in general choose to have nothing to do with it. As to the question of what they were doing, that is irrelevant, Britain was not a police state. No-one needs to justify why they are out at night.

I see. So Israel Schwartz...Leon Goldstein.....George Hutchinson...just some exceptions? That last sentence is really off though Jon....during a serial killer scare with violent acts occurring daily in the areas concerned, people would have to justify what they were doing out to any law enforcement that questioned them. Its not like anyones rights were being protected beyond the basic infringements, and at that time it was someone, or some people, out at night who the police were looking for in murder investigations. Also, travelling and appearing as a couple could be very advantageous for a local terrorist.

[Wickerman]

My point is that someone suggested that the killer could have jumped the gate, if it didnt lead to another exit then he would have been stuffed ! So can we rule than line of exit out ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I didn't really take that potential exit route as serious. A place to hide perhaps. but unless he was able to make his way through an empty house to the street beyond, then no. In 1888 there seems to have been a wooden structure occupying a large section of that yard, so the area through that gate was little more than a passage or pathway leading nowhere.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Irrelevant?

It's unlike you to so completely miss the point of a question.

I wasn't suggesting they were innocent bystanders.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon.

I took your point to mean "who else could they have been?" The answers to that question are wide open. And no-one is required to justify what they are doing when they are merely standing minding their own business.

[Wickerman]

I see. So Israel Schwartz...Leon Goldstein.....George Hutchinson...just some exceptions? That last sentence is really off though Jon....during a serial killer scare with violent acts occurring daily in the areas concerned, people would have to justify what they were doing out to any law enforcement that questioned them. Its not like anyones rights were being protected beyond the basic infringements, and at that time it was someone, or some people, out at night who the police were looking for in murder investigations. Also, travelling and appearing as a couple could be very advantageous for a local terrorist.

I think the law is quite clear, then as now, you don't have to say anything when questioned.
But this is all beside the point, the question is being posed by a modern theorist, not a local constable in 1888.

[Monty]

Hi Monty.
Hope you are well.

Ok, are you saying Church Passage was covered prior to some time in 1888, when it was uncovered?
If the press reports from Oct/Nov 1888 suggest it was covered, but the Goads Map shows it uncovered. There isn't a lot of time to make that map at the end of the year.
Also, I have an 1873 map that shows it uncovered.

Can you recall what exactly, beyond those press reports, leads us to believe Church Passage was covered, at any time?

No. I'm merely trying to give a reason as to why the A-Z may have provided an erroneous description of Church Passage, that's all.

The 1888 Church Passage (renamed St James Passage in the 1980s) was never covered.

Monty

[Wickerman]

The Derby Daily Telegraph (Oct. 1st): "…indeed one of the policemen who saw the body (Eddowes) in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighborhood of Aldgate-High Street."[and,] "The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman (Watkins) pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose."

A similar story written on October 2, 1888 by a London correspondent for The New York Times: "The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him [….]

Didn't Commissioner Smith say that she had been recognised by his men as a woman who plies her trade in that area of the city?

As to the police theory, it isn't anything unique to the police. It's pretty much common sense as opposed to them memorizing the constables beat.

Then, the Watchboy, given the distance from Aldgate station to Mitre Square, he can't have seen many people that night if he had cause to remember this particular couple. Plus, you can't see Mitre Sq. from Aldgate Station, so the Watchboy only saw them walk west along the High Street.
That said, there is nothing in those two accounts that help us decide which couple they are talking about. The Duke Street pair, or the pair coming through St. James Place.

[Monty]

I think the law is quite clear, then as now, you don't have to say anything when questioned.
But this is all beside the point, the question is being posed by a modern theorist, not a local constable in 1888.

However an inference may be made if you do fail to answer a question.

Monty

[Wickerman]

The 1888 Church Passage (renamed St James Passage in the 1980s) was never covered.

Monty

Thankyou, thats what threw me. "Uncovered" could mean it was covered at one time.
We have two erroneous press reports.

[Wickerman]

Quite possibly.

You wouldn't want late night stragglers from the Imperial Club wandering down Church Passage into Mitre Square and interrupting the proceedings.

No concern about the other two entrances to the square?

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello Jeff! Great job of reconstructing the police officers' beats and times. Don't think I'm nuts, but have you ever considered the possibility that P.C. Watkins actually came face-to-face with the Ripper when he re-entered the square from Mitre Street?

Dr. John

[DJA]

Hi Jeff.

The detail you referred to in the above quote, about the corner where Eddowes was found. There are press sketches which show a fence & a gate.



Coincidentally, I just came across a newspaper sketch that shows Jack escaping through that same gate..


IPN 13 Oct 1888.

I thought, why even make this sketch when they know about the GSG and the expected escape route?
The details from the inquest were published the day before (12th), perhaps news travels slow on a weekend.

Those are of Mitre Square and 29 Hanbury Street.

[DJA]

As I said earlier, it led to the private backyard of #5 Mitre Street. (see F.W. Foster's plans of Mitre Square) The top of the arched doorway leading into the back of #5 can be seen through the fence.

The door tops are 6 and 7 Mitre Street.

Reckon Sutton/JtR was using 6 as a bolt hole when not at home in Sevenoaks,Kent.
Suspect he had been there for at least 3 years.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff! Great job of reconstructing the police officers' beats and times. Don't think I'm nuts, but have you ever considered the possibility that P.C. Watkins actually came face-to-face with the Ripper when he re-entered the square from Mitre Street?

Dr. John

Hi Dr. John,

I've considered it, but as neither PC Watkins nor PC Harvey reports passing anyone, I've considered routes where JtR passes them to be ruled out; obviously, there's no rule that says you have to agree with that decision. But my reasoning is that had the PC Watkins passed anyone just before finding Eddowes, he would have taken note that he saw someone. He was on patrol, so even though he would have had no reason to stop someone, he would have noted their presence, and then, at the very least, sent someone in that direction at the first opportunity. I do recall there's some "myth" story, of a suspect being met in an alley with "white hands" or something like that, but I can't locate it. If JtR fled down Church passage and passed PC Harvey, for example, that could fit some aspects of that story, but it's not PC Harvey who was supposed to have had this encounter. As such, and as I also don't put any stock in that story, I'm pretty sure that JtR fled either through St. James's Place or out to Mitre Street and then north. My preference is now for Mitre Street, as the firemen who were in St. James's Place state nobody came out of the Mitre Square passage. While they could have simply missed someone, we still have at least some reason to put a preference towards the other available exit.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

...... Don't think I'm nuts, but have you ever considered the possibility that P.C. Watkins actually came face-to-face with the Ripper when he re-entered the square from Mitre Street?

Dr. John

My Dear Watson, I take it you are familiar with the story by Det. Stephen White?

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...477#post708477