The Apron Again

[curious4]

Oh come on please lets keep this in the realms of reality

Hello Trevor,

No need to go all growly. I refer to Dickens regarding the "respectability" of a white apron: first in Oliver Twist, where Nancy is "decorated" with a white apron as well as basket and key in order to fetch her "little brother", and also in The Uncommercial Traveller, where Dickens relates his experience of having a girl arrested for using foul language on the street, seeing her in court "The prisoner had been got up, since I last I had the pleasure of seeing her, with a great affect of white apron..." In the absence of Sky Channel, I think we can turn to Dickens as regards the mores of the London poor.

A pocket being at the time a cloth bag tied with tapes round the waist I think there would easily have been room for a folded up worn apron, considering the amount of things Kate had with her - I believe she wore two pockets? So not beyond the bounds of possibility that she took off an apron and put it in one of her "pockets".

I will grant that JTR deliberately defacing the apron is a flight of fancy, but who is to say?

I was joking about the witnesses re Hutchinson - my sense of humour does tend to get the better of me.

I believe I was on thread regarding apron?

However, if you prefer to go back to french maids and so on, be my guest.

Regards,
C4

[John Bennett]

Oh come on please lets keep this in the realms of reality

This thread broke free of those boundaries long ago.

[Trevor Marriott]

Morning all,

I introduced the old piece of apron in reply to the original question, as something less likely to be drenched in blood. Then it occured to me that there was no mention of an apron in the list of clothing, which intrigued me. This is rapidly turning into Annie Chapmanīs farthings!

Canīt see any evidence of an apron in Dr Brownīs sketch, though.

I suppose the logical thing to do when your victim is wearing an apron is to throw it up over the upper half of the body in order to get to your area of interest, so to speak and then perhaps cut through the clothes. By the way, I believe aprons were worn to give an air of respectability.

As to the witnesses coming forward two weeks later, perhaps we should count them as suspects, as per Hutchinson.

I suppose there is always the possibility that Kate WAS wearing an apron and took it off at some point, putting it into one of her "pockets". After all, if Jack had cut off a piece, it could be described a piece of old apron and he could have been making a statement by defacing her symbol of respectability.

Best wishes,
C4

Oh come on please lets keep this in the realms of reality

[curious4]

The Apron

Morning all,

I introduced the old piece of apron in reply to the original question, as something less likely to be drenched in blood. Then it occured to me that there was no mention of an apron in the list of clothing, which intrigued me. This is rapidly turning into Annie Chapmanīs farthings!

Canīt see any evidence of an apron in Dr Brownīs sketch, though.

I suppose the logical thing to do when your victim is wearing an apron is to throw it up over the upper half of the body in order to get to your area of interest, so to speak and then perhaps cut through the clothes. By the way, I believe aprons were worn to give an air of respectability.

As to the witnesses coming forward two weeks later, perhaps we should count them as suspects, as per Hutchinson.

I suppose there is always the possibility that Kate WAS wearing an apron and took it off at some point, putting it into one of her "pockets". After all, if Jack had cut off a piece, it could be described a piece of old apron and he could have been making a statement by defacing her symbol of respectability.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Hi All,

Evening News, 11th October 1888—

A great deal of fresh evidence will be given to the adjourned inquest, which will be held to-day, at the City Coroner's Court, Golden-lane, upon the body of the Mitre-square victim. Since the adjournment, Shelton, the Coroner's officer, has, with the assistance of the City Police authorities, discovered several new witnesses, including the daughter of the deceased, who was found to be occupying a respectable situation as a domestic in the neighbourhood of Kennington. She states that they saw the deceased standing at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, a few minutes' walk from Mitre-square. This was as near as they can recollect about half-post one o'clock, and she was then alone. They recognized her on account of the white apron she was wearing.

The story of Annie Phillips seeing her mother at 1.30 am on the morning of her murder appears to have been the result of sloppy sub-editing by the Evening News.

Here is the story as it appeared in The Times, same day. Note that Kennington, in south London, became Kensington, in west London.

"A good deal of fresh evidence will be given at the adjourned inquest, which will be held to-day at the City Coroner's Court, Golden-lane, upon the body of the Mitre-square victim. Since the adjournment, Shelton, the coroner's officer, has, with the assistance of the City police authorities, discovered several new witnesses, including the daughter of the deceased, who was found to be occupying a respectable situation as a domestic in the neighbourhood of Kensington. She states that she had not seen her mother for some time, and certainly did not see her on the night she met her death.

"Two witnesses have also been found who state that they saw the deceased standing at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, a few minutes' walk from Mitre-square. This was as near as they can recollect about half-past 1 o'clock, and she was then alone. They recognized her on account of the white apron she was wearing."

This report makes it sound as though the wearing of a white apron was unique to Catherine Eddowes.

Make of it what you will.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

No problem, ejector seat in full working order.

Best wishes
C4

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Hunter,

The witnesses in my post saw Eddowes on her own. Alone. Wearing her unmistakeable white apron. Two hundred yards down the street from Church Passage. At 1.30 am.

How could they have been Lawende & Co.?

It sure is a mystery.

Regards,

Simon

Of course to add to that the apron piece or whaetever you want to refer to it as was described as being old and dirty perhaps not visibly white enough to have been seen from afar.

[Trevor Marriott]

Outside of the written depositions, each paper sometimes had different versions of the verbal testimony. In regards to Insp. Collard and his participation at the morgue, I earlier suggested that he might have arrived after the body had been stripped. This was based upon the written deposition and what was reproduced in the Times. The version in the Daily Telegraph (from Casebook press reports) gives Collard as stating he was present when the body was stripped:

'The body was not touched until the arrival shortly afterwords of Dr. Brown. The medical gentlemen examined the body, and in my presence Sergeant Jones picked up from the foot way by the left side of the deceased three small black buttons, such as are generally used for boots, a small metal button, a common metal thimble, and a small penny mustard tin containing two pawn-tickets. They were handed to me. The doctors remained until the arrival of the ambulance, and saw the body placed in the conveyance. It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself. I have a list of articles of clothing more or less stained with blood and cut.'




Could you provide the source for the statement that there was no apron? Or is this your interpretation? Obviously if her apron had been cut, what was left would be a 'piece' since the whole no longer existed.

Dr Browns inquest testimony

[mariab]

A tablier, Lynn?

[lynn cates]

attire

Hello Greg. Don't French maids wear . . . oh, never mind.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Yes Maria, but that was three or four apron threads ago. We've now entered a Beam Me Up Scotty force field.

Agree, and we should attempt skirting the issue. (Skirting the apron.)

[Roy Corduroy]

Jane Coram once said that such an apron would have been worn for keeping warm.

Yes Maria, but that was three or four apron threads ago. We've now entered a Beam Me Up Scotty force field.

Roy

[mariab]

"wearing a white apron outside her clothes whilst out walking seems SO Unusual"
Indeed. But even odder to be soliciting in such. Ah, well--the male libido. Who can fathom it? (heh-heh)

LOL. It's the dirndl style of dressing. Like a cheerleader in a really, really, really long, thick skirt.
Jane Coram once said that such an apron would have been worn for keeping warm (instead of a coat?).

[Hunter]

Outside of the written depositions, each paper sometimes had different versions of the verbal testimony. In regards to Insp. Collard and his participation at the morgue, I earlier suggested that he might have arrived after the body had been stripped. This was based upon the written deposition and what was reproduced in the Times. The version in the Daily Telegraph (from Casebook press reports) gives Collard as stating he was present when the body was stripped:

'The body was not touched until the arrival shortly afterwords of Dr. Brown. The medical gentlemen examined the body, and in my presence Sergeant Jones picked up from the foot way by the left side of the deceased three small black buttons, such as are generally used for boots, a small metal button, a common metal thimble, and a small penny mustard tin containing two pawn-tickets. They were handed to me. The doctors remained until the arrival of the ambulance, and saw the body placed in the conveyance. It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself. I have a list of articles of clothing more or less stained with blood and cut.'

Inspector Collard listed her possessions and clothes. There was no apron, except for "one piece of old white apron".

Now according to the above that could be interpreted that she wasnt wearing an apron but in possession of an apron piece.

Could you provide the source for the statement that there was no apron? Or is this your interpretation? Obviously if her apron had been cut, what was left would be a 'piece' since the whole no longer existed.

[GregBaron]

Fathom?

Indeed. But even odder to be soliciting in such. Ah, well--the male libido. Who can fathom it? (heh-heh)

Lynn, are you suggesting you don't find a frumpy middle aged harlot dressed in a white apron to be attractive? This was the bikini of the Victorian age. C'mon get with it.................As an old friend once told me of college.........this is as good as it gets....



Greg

[lynn cates]

forerunner of fish net hose

Hello Phil.

"wearing a white apron outside her clothes whilst out walking seems SO Unusual"

Indeed. But even odder to be soliciting in such. Ah, well--the male libido. Who can fathom it? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC