The Apron

[Phil Carter]

Phil,

Halse said he went to the mortuary before returning to Mitre Square. Then he heard of the apron.

Long began moving to the police station at 3.

In my view, the inquest testimony takes precedence over the official report, because, quite simply, the former is straight from the horse's mouth.

I have to say that the idea that the two of them must have been in the same street at the same time, is a non-starter and perhaps leading away from the critical issues.

As was stated earlier, 'about' is informative here. Would they be checking their watches every few seconds, or would they be busy looking for someone/something/anything?

Hello FM,

According to Halse at the inquest he said.."I came through Goulston Street at about 2.20am and went back to Mitre Square and then accompanied Inspector Collard to the Mortuary"

from page 239 The Ultimate Sourcebook.

kindly

Phil

[lynn cates]

2 points

Hello Mac.

"In my view, the inquest testimony takes precedence over the official report"

Hmm, first time I've heard that one. Usually, it's the other way about.

"I have to say that the idea that the two of them must have been in the same street at the same time, is a non-starter and perhaps leading away from the critical issues."

OK. And those critical issues are? (Just to keep all the ideas straight.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

aha!

Hello Simon. Say, that makes the gravy thick!

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello FM,

According to Halse at the inquest he said.."I came through Goulston Street at about 2.20am and went back to ;itre Square and then accompanied Inspector Collard to the Mortuary"

from page 239 The Ultimate Sourcebook.

kindly

Phil

Hi Phil,

Yes and then returned to Mitre Square with Smith?

[lynn cates]

geography

Hello Neil. Umm, I have a map of the area. One may trace the various routes that night--I have.

Given that Halse was a City chap and knew Mitre sq pretty well, why not go and check the empty buildings before another moment passes?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

implication

Hello Phil.

"So now we have two different people, Smith AND McWilliam, who compiled the official report, telling us the apron piece was NOT found at 2.55am. Also, that according to Smith, Halse SAW a light being shone."

Hard to deny. That seems to be the implication.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Phil.

"So now we have two different people, Smith AND McWilliam, who compiled the official report, telling us the apron piece was NOT found at 2.55am. Also, that according to Smith, Halse SAW a light being shone."

Hard to deny. That seems to be the implication.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Smith doesn't say that all, nor is it implied.

[Phil Carter]

Hello FM,

According to Halse..

He arrived at Mitre Square a little after being made aware of the murder at one or two minutes to two.

According to Halse..

He went to Goulston Street via Middlesex Street and then Wentworth Street having stopped two men and questioned them.

According to Halse..

He was in Goulston Street at about 2-20am
He passed the spot where the apron piece was found at 2.20am

According to Halse..

He then returned to Mitre Square and THEN accompanierd Insdpector collard to the mortuary.

According to Halse..

I saw the deceased stripped and saw a piece of the apron was missing

I went back with Major Smith to Mitre Square when we went back ('back to Goulstone' deleted) I and Detective Hunt went to Leman Street Police station.

According to Halse..

I and Detective Hunt went to Goulston Street and the spot was pointed ouit where the apron was found... I remained there and sent with a view to having the writing photographed. Directions were given to having the writing photographed and during the time some of the Metropolitan Police said as it was Sunday morning it might cause a riot or an outbreak against the Jewsand decided to have it rubbed out and it wasd rubbed out. When Hunt returned an enquiry was madeat every tenement..."

All according to Halse.

kindly


Phil

[Monty]

Hello Neil. Umm, I have a map of the area. One may trace the various routes that night--I have.

Given that Halse was a City chap and knew Mitre sq pretty well, why not go and check the empty buildings before another moment passes?

Cheers.
LC

Ok,

Watkins duty was to establish such building were secure, he would have done this during his beat. Also, Collard stated they were searched and found to be secure.

However, logically, are you stating a killer would hide inside an empty house, yards away from a body, knowing full well that property is most likely to be searched rather than get the hell away?

Maybe you do need a refresher on logic

Smiths memoires or inquest testimony?

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

OK. And those critical issues are? (Just to keep all the ideas straight.)

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

The idea that the two of them must have been in the street at the same time simply can be countered quite easily, as per this thread.

I'm curious about Long.

Is he checking every doorway on his beat? That would be a long, old beat. Would he be overly concerned with what was lying around in Goulston Street, considering that he didn't know where the murder took place (at the testimony he claims he was expecting to find the body near the apron). I suppose this suggests the apron was visible from the street. Bizarrely, he knows the murder has taken place in the city, why is he expecting to find the body at Goulston Street? Does he think the apron is related to a murder other than that committed at Mitre Square?

But, Long knows only that a murder has been committed 'in the city', not that it's nearby in Mitre Square. So, why is the apron of importance to him? Would it be so unsual to see a piece of clothlying around with blood stains on it? Would it warrant proceeding to the police station, particularly as he finds no blood splashes nearby?

[Phil Carter]

Hello FM,

I have to say that your comment that Inquest testimony takes precedence over the Official report to be rather like moving the goalposts.

Are we or are we not to believe the official report?

Or are we going to start saying that not only does McWilliam get loads of things completely wrong, he leaves out THE most important piece of testimony of Halse's, that he stopped and questioned two perople very close to the murder spot whilst on his way to Goulston Street?

Add that piece of info, which according to some, has "gone missing" from the official report that it isn't even mentioned DESPITE being testified at the Inquest by Halse? McWilliam MUST have known of the Inquest testimony when he wrote his report on October 27th. He must also have known of Halse's testimony about stopping 2 people as well..or are we now to believe he wasn't told about this?

kindly


Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello FM,

I and Detective Hunt went to Goulston Street and the spot was pointed ouit where the apron was found... I remained there and sent with a view to having the writing photographed. Directions were given to having the writing photographed and during the time some of the Metropolitan Police said as it was Sunday morning it might cause a riot or an outbreak against the Jewsand decided to have it rubbed out and it wasd rubbed out. When Hunt returned an enquiry was madeat every tenement..."

All according to Halse.

kindly


Phil

'The spot was pointed out where the apron was found'. Is the argument that the apron is no longer there, and as such this contradicts Smith's report?

[Phil Carter]

But, Long knows only that a murder has been committed 'in the city', not that it's nearby in Mitre Square. So, why is the apron of importance to him? Would it be so unsual to see a piece of clothlying around with blood stains on it? Would it warrant proceeding to the police station, particularly as he finds no blood splashes nearby?

Hello FM,

Actually, Long says..

"Having searched (the buildings etc), I at once preceeded to the Station. Before proceeding there, I had heard of a murder having been committed. I had heard of the murder in Mitre Square. I left the man 190 in charge of the beat H division..... I next returned to the Building at about 5am."


kindly


Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello FM,

Actually, Long says..

"Having searched (the buildings etc), I at once preceeded to the Station. Before proceeding there, I had heard of a murder having been committed. I had heard of the murder in Mitre Square. I left the man 190 in charge of the beat JH division..... I next returned to the Building at about 5am."


kindly


Phil

Hi Phil,

At the time of the inquest he knew the murder had taken place in Mitre Square.

His comment leaves room for opinion: had he heard the murder had taken place in Mitre Square at 3 in the morning? or had he heard simply it was 'in the city' (and found out later it was Mitre Square)?

It's not clear from his testimony.

[lynn cates]

some points

Hello Neil.

"However, logically, are you stating a killer would hide inside an empty house, yards away from a body, knowing full well that property is most likely to be searched rather than get the hell away?"

Not at all. I am saying that this would be a sound idea for Halse to pursue. He could not have known whether the killer had made away or not

"Maybe you do need a refresher on logic."

Possibly. Perhaps you will volunteer and do me the honour? I have always had many questions about Lewis' modal system S9 and the various access relations amongst possible worlds. Help me out?

Cheers.
LC