The Apron

[Monty]

"Two police officers in the same street almost at the same time and they dont see each other or hear each other and both are looking listening and searching. Both almost fall into the archway at almost the same time and neither suposedly see ther apron piece."

No real evidence to support this, as the two did not state they saw each other.

"And why did Halse decide to go dwn Gouldton Street that was out of City territory in fact why did he go into Wentorth St that was also out of his territory"

Because Halse was in pursuit of a killer. What do you think happens? Halse stopped in Houndsditch a went "Whoop, not my territory, cant enter here"?

There is a myth that the two forces did not co-operate or were not permitted on each others patch. Whilst this is true to some extent, they did assist each other with arrests etc. Marriott (City DC) for example, aided a Met PC and escorted the criminal (after being 'hob knocked') to Commercial Street Police Station (a Met station).

Halse was well within his right to entre Met territory on that night.

Monty

[lynn cates]

por que alli?

Hello Neil.

"Halse was well within his right to enter Met territory on that night."

Of course he was. No qualms about that. But perhaps Trevor's point involves asking "Why did he choose EXACTLY that location?" Was it a hunch? A tip? A wild guess? Mere coincidence?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Hello Neil.

"Halse was well within his right to enter Met territory on that night."

Of course he was. No qualms about that. But perhaps Trevor's point involves asking "Why did he choose EXACTLY that location?" Was it a hunch? A tip? A wild guess? Mere coincidence?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

He seems to have been heading in the direction of where the other murders occured and where, according to the general concensus of the time, it was felt the killer lived.

The City Police were fully aware of what was happening across the boarder.

Monty

[Wickerman]

There is a myth that the two forces did not co-operate or were not permitted on each others patch.

Absolutely, there's at least three reports mentioning the fact that the City Police were assigned the task of interviewing the tennents of Wentworth Dwellings (108-119) in Met. territory.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

If the reasonable bounds of probability are that Long had the shutters on his lamp OPEN when he previously visited the spot where the apron was found and saw, and noted, that he saw nothing in the doorway, and that he himself said in his sworn statement the following which is seen in "the Ulimate" on page 238..

" I passed the spot where the apron was found about 2.20, the apron was not there when I passed then"

Halse states that at the same time, 2.20 am, he was at the SAME spot and saw no apron either.

Now given that Long was using his lamp to search the dark recesses.. and there were many of the same variety in the street, on the same side of the road in fact.. Long would have had the shutters OPEN as he searched all these dark recesses. The amount of time that would take would, in all logical opinion, show that a person with a lamp shining would almost certainly be seen in the street by someone else.. ESPECIALLY given that Halse says he was at the apron spot at around the same time as Long..2.20 am.

As I said before.. they CANNOT have been walking towards each other from opposite directions during this time of search, it would be impossible to miss each other. Therefore it is logical to assume, because of Halse's timing of 2.20, he entered the street via Wentworth Street one or two minutes before.
So one policeman MUST have been behind the other, travelling in the same direction.

We assume that Long patrolled the ENTIRE length of the street. It is a fairly long street. Let us also assume that there are perhaps 2 minutes interlude between the two men being at the spot where the apron piece was found.
Now if Long was busy searching the dark recesses, in and out of the doorways, and from the position of Halse at 2.20 being at the apron spot, how in heavens name did he NOT see Long and his lamp in front of him? If long was behind him, the street was dead quiet.. sound would have been heard and the flash of the lamp in the street would have shone along the street every time the lamp was carried out of any recess.

There is no way, in my opinion, that these two policemen didnt see each other, nor hear each other. Given the timing, the length of street from Wentworth Street to the place of the apron dumping, and the statements of BOTH men being at that spot at about the same time, it is almost impossible to my mind.

Next... this is Halse's run of things...

ABOUT 2 minutes to 2 her was in the company iof Marriott and Outram in Houndsditch by Aldgate Church. If Aldgate church had a clock face on it, then the time would have been known to be exact. About 2 minutes to 2 sounds pretty precise to me..not about 5 mins to, but two minutes to two. Again, if Halse said that he was at a spot at 2.20 and had NO clock to refer to, one assumes he must have had a pocket watch. Hence, "ABOUT 2 minutes to 2".

All three went to Mitre Square, perhaps 30 secs away? say a minute. So by 2 o'clock, with certainty, all three were in Mitre Square.

Now James Harvey stated..

"At 20 to 2 on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church passage as far as Mitre Squsre. I saw no one.I heard no cry or noise. When I got to Aldgate returning to Duke StreetI heard a whistle blownand SAW witness Morris with a LAMP.I went to him and asked what was the matter. He said, 'A woman has been ripped up in Mitre Square.'
I saw a constable on the other side of the street. I said, 'Come with me.' (This must have been Constable Holland)

We went to Mitre Square and saw Watkins there and the Deceased. Constable Holland who followed me went for Dr.Sequiera. Private individuals were sent for other Constables, arriving almost immediately. I waited there with Watkins (see the official report by McWilliam, below) and information was at once sent for the Inspector. I passed the office clock between 1 and 2 minutes to the half hour(1.28/1.29am).
I go as far as to the end of Church passage. I was at the end of Church Passage at about 18 or 19 minutes to 2. (1.41/1.42 am). I can only speak with certainty as to the time with regard to the post office clock.

So.. Harvey turns up in Mitre Square with Holland after he heard the whistle and chats with Morris. Morris, for his part states that..
"At a quarter to 2 Watkins... knocked on my door.." He then got hold of his lamp, walked the 20 odd yards over to the body, and shone his lamp on the body. He then states..

"I immediately blew my whistle and ran up Mitre Street into Aldgate. I saw no suspicious person. ABOUT then 2 Constables came up and asked me what was the matter. ... I then followed the Constables down to Mitre Square and took charge of my premises again..." (These must have been Harvey and Holland)

So if the time taken by Morris from seeing the body (ca. 1.46am), blowing his whistle, running up Mitre Street into Aldgate, where Holland and Harvey were is estimated at 2 minutes (1.48am) and all three were back in Mitre Square at ca.1.50 am, then Halse, by his own testimony, only turned up at 1.59/2.00am in company of Marriott and Outram and "gave instructions to have the neighbourhood searched and every man examined" etc.

Holland had been sent to get Sequiera, according to Harvey, so he wasn't there at 2.00am when Halse arrived. The only other known constables in Mitre Square at 2am were Watkins, and Harvey.Watkins didnt leave the body, so it must have been Outram, Marriott and Harvey who had been given instructions by Halse. But again, see the OFFICIAL report, below)

Sequiera says that he was called at "5 minutes to 2 and was the first medical man to arrive. As Holland was sent by Harvey to get him, it could not have taken Holland more than 4 minutes to reach Sequira. He would therefore have been back in Mitre Square with Holland shortly after, if not about 2.am.

Now compare that with the words of Inspector James McWilliam dated 27th October in his official report of the Eddowes murder (A49301C/8b)...

"The Constable who found the body immediately sent for a Surgeon and ALSO (my emphasis) to the Police Station at Bishopsgate and Inspector Collard was on the spot in a few minutes.

Detective Constables Halse, Marriott and Outram who had been searching the IMMEDIATE neighbourhood of the spot where the murder was committed (& where the doors are left open all night) on HEARING OF THE MURDER AT 1.55am (my emphasis again) at once started off in various directions to look for suspected persons. The Officer Halse went in the direction of Whitechapel and passed through Goulston Street where part of the deceased's apron was subsequently found at 2.20 AM (my emphasis AGAIN); on returning to the Square he HEARD that part of the apron stained with blood had BEEN FOUND in Goulston Street.

Right.. anyone see the differences here? This is an OFFICIAL report written by Inspector McWilliam. First he states that the Constable that FOUND the body (which would have been Watkins)..sent for both a Surgeon and for someone to go to Bishopsgate police Station. According to page 245 of the Ultimate, The Times reports the Inquest as followsd..

""Witness (Watkins) remained by the side of the body till the arrival of Police Constable Holland.No one was there with witness until Holland arrived, and he was FOLLOWED by Dr. Sequiera. Inspector Collard arrived at about 2."

Err hang on a bit. How did Holland first arrive than disappear then first arrive again with the Doctor WITHOUT being in the Square first with Harvey, who isnt even mentioned in the official report!!?

If Collard arrived at about two, and he was an Inspector, how come HALSE gave the instructions at the same time for constables to search around the area and stop all people?

According to the official report, Halse and Co heard of the murder at 1.55am, this time is specific.

According to the official report, the deceased's apron piece was found at 2.20am, NOT 2.55am.

According to the official report, when Halse RETURNED from Goulston Street, he HEARD that an apron piece had been found. So if it took ten minutes for Halse to get back to Mitre Square, the apron piece was found within 10 minutes of him being there.. and according to the OFFICIAL report, that piece of Apron was found at 2.20am-- which according to Halse himself at the inquest, is the time when he passed the spot where the apron was found!

These quotes are all from the Ultimate Sourcebook..in black and white.
Perhaps someone will now tell me that the possibility of Halse having dumped the rag is absurd? Officially, it was found at 2.20am. At the inquest, Halse said he was at that exact spot at 2.20am. Yet remember, it was LONG who found the rag piece. So who in heavens name could tell Halse "when he arrived back at Mitre Square" that an apron piece had been found" if not Long himself and Halse came back with the info?? The very policeman I keep being told could not have been in the street at the same time as Halse!!! Unless Long went off to the police station and someone from the police station intercepted Halse on his way back from Mitre Square and told him... which is almost a physical impossibility as the police station Long went off to is in the opposite direction to the way Halse going back to Mitre Square..


kindly

Phil

PS IN THE OFFICIAL REPORT, ABOVE, THERE IS NO MENTION OF HALSE HAVING STOPPED AND SEARCHED ANYONE AT ALL ON HIS WAY TO GOULSTON STREET.

[lynn cates]

hunch

Hello Neil. Thanks. Sounds like a hunch?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Shoot me....shoot me now!

Monty

[Monty]

Hello Neil. Thanks. Sounds like a hunch?

Cheers.
LC

No, sound like logic to me.

Monty

[lynn cates]

It's about time

Hello Phil. A lot of thinking here.

If McWilliam is off in an official report, perhaps other official reports are off as well?

But if his time is correct . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

logic

Hello Neil. Logic? A body is found in Mitre sq, so go look in Goulston st?

OK. Let's just say logic has changed a good bit since I defended my doctoral dissertation on logic in 1994.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Phil,

Halse said he went to the mortuary before returning to Mitre Square. Then he heard of the apron.

Long began moving to the police station at 3.

In my view, the inquest testimony takes precedence over the official report, because, quite simply, the former is straight from the horse's mouth.

I have to say that the idea that the two of them must have been in the same street at the same time, is a non-starter and perhaps leading away from the critical issues.

As was stated earlier, 'about' is informative here. Would they be checking their watches every few seconds, or would they be busy looking for someone/something/anything?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Major Henry Smith—

"My men, thoroughly awake at last, were scouring the whole neighbourhood, and one of them, Halse by name, who had been with us in Mitre Square, thinking he had a better chance down Whitechapel way, ran at his best pace in that direction. Goulston Street, Whitechapel, is a broad thoroughfare running parallel with the Commercial Road, just one-third of a mile from the Square, and in that street, at the door of one of the model workmen's dwellings erected by Peabody, he saw a light, and, halting, found a constable of the Metropolitan Force looking at the missing piece of apron."

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Hello Neil. Logic? A body is found in Mitre sq, so go look in Goulston st?

OK. Let's just say logic has changed a good bit since I defended my doctoral dissertation on logic in 1994.

Cheers.
LC

Lynn,

I suggest you take a look at the geography, note the direction and the buildings in between, such as Kings block etc.

A route down Goulston st and into New Goulston st indicates a return to Mitre Square. Its a logical route back without doubling back.


Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Simon,

If that is correct, then the official report of McWilliam saying that the ragpiece was found at 2.20 would be correct.. because Halse RAN from Mitre Square to Goulston Street.

I note also that Smith does not mention Halse stopping anyone in Wentworth Street either, like the official report.

So now we have two different people, Smith AND McWilliam, who compiled the official report, telling us the apron piece was NOT found at 2.55am. Also, that according to Smith, Halse SAW a light being shone.


Thank you


kindly


Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi All,

Major Henry Smith—

"My men, thoroughly awake at last, were scouring the whole neighbourhood, and one of them, Halse by name, who had been with us in Mitre Square, thinking he had a better chance down Whitechapel way, ran at his best pace in that direction. Goulston Street, Whitechapel, is a broad thoroughfare running parallel with the Commercial Road, just one-third of a mile from the Square, and in that street, at the door of one of the model workmen's dwellings erected by Peabody, he saw a light, and, halting, found a constable of the Metropolitan Force looking at the missing piece of apron."

Regards,

Simon

At two minutes to two o'clock on the Sunday morning, when near Aldgate Church, in company with Detectives Outram and Marriott, I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square, subsequently going to the mortuary. I saw the deceased, and noticed that a portion of her apron was missing. I accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre-square, when we heard that a piece of apron had been found in Goulston-street. After visiting Leman-street police-station, I proceeded to Goulston-street, where I saw some chalk-writing on the black facia of the wall.

1) Thoroughly awake at last suggests they've taken some time to get their act together, i.e. not 2am when Halse moved towards Goulston Street.

2) Halse states that he accompanied Henry Smith to Mitre Square (after going to the mortuary), which ties in with Smith.

3) So, Halse legs it down the street when he hears the apron was found. Why? It's not beyond the realms of possibility to believe the murderer is still knocking around in the area. Who does he find looking at the apron? The fella left in charge by Long?

I don't see an inconsistency between Halse and Smith.