The Apron

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think you are wrong in that line of thinking, but. . .

Then why did he take the cut piece of apron with him?

'Wrong'?

I certainly can't prove it.

But, it's not a bad argument at all.

In terms of logisitics and practicality:

Think about it. A full apron, tied at the waist from the back, she's on her back: how exactly does he pull this thing up in order to do his mutilation bit? Either he reaches round the back and unties it (tricky when she's lying on her back), or he cuts the apron.

In terms of why he took it, then that's an altogether different question which does not negate the aforementioned proposition.

[John Bennett]

There is no need for any of this spurious elaboration.

"Jack" killed Eddowes, cut off some material to clean himself up, discarded it in an open doorway and went home. End of story.

Occam's Razor in action, Phil. And I concur.

And then I would venture this:

-Jack tosses apron piece into doorway en route from Mitre Square, so it has possibly been there since 1.55am (approx).
-PC Long passes at 2.20am and doesn't see apron, possibly because he just didn't notice it in the darkness of the doorway.
-2.55am, Long goes for another pass and perhaps checking a tad more thoroughly, finds apron and graffiti.

That's as simple as I can muster.

[Malcolm X]

Thanks, Malcolm.

Although no murderer, I could make it as a second rate graffiti artist.

The point is this: there must be something in the writing to make you think the writing and apron are connected. For instance, in the event the writing stated: John loves Claire, you wouldn't connect the two.

So, what excatly in the writing connects the two?

oh flipping heck

you must know my theory by now.... the connection is very strong, L.Stride was killed at Dutfields, the graffiti is refering back to that location, and the bloody apron is refering back to Eddowes...... both murders are therefore linked.

that club was full of socialist revolutionary Jew troublemakers, according to what i've read, but it might not be as bad as that, whatever the case, you should know exactly what i mean by now, because i've been mentioning this for ages.

you have what might be, a bunch of local jew hating street vigilantes, hanging around outside Dutfields causing mayhem, maybe 4 guys and one of these is JTR..... they're hastling prostitutes, picking fights, that sort of thing, this lot might have killed Tabram too.

i dont think JTR is BS, he's one of the others that spoke to Stride earlier, the one that told her, ``you'd say anything except your prayers``

i think that BS and Pipeman are maybe his friends, these lot seem like a Motley bunch with only JTR being the heavyweight mutilator, you might find that Coles/ Mackenzie were killed by Pipeman/ BS....

``you'd say anything but your prayers`` is odd, it's fully loaded, it's sneering and quite insulting, he's saying ``you're a liar and a waste of space``..... even if he said this as a joke, it's still quite insulting.....of course, we dont know if he really said this and this is why we're so Screwed when it comes to JTR

maybe this bunch aren't friends, maybe this location is a magnet for troublemakers instead ..

because if anything, BS and PIPEMAN look like they know each other, but JTR maybe not........... not sure, maybe

[Phil H]

There is no need for any of this spurious elaboration.

"Jack" killed Eddowes, cut off some material to clean himself up, discarded it in an open doorway and went home. End of story.

If we go down this conspiratorial ratholes we'll soon be asking not who was JtR, but who was the only person in London not involved.

If some of this stuff appeared in an undergraduate history essay you'd get Z minus for misuing evidence, not arguing logically and creating scenarios out of whole cloth. It may be fun, but it's neither big nor clever, let alone grown up.

Phil

[lynn cates]

reentry

Hello Lechmere.

"Yet re-entering the area with a major piece of incriminating evidence just so he can leave the apron and possibly inscribe the graffiti at that particular location makes no sense at all."

Precisely. But what if the apron toter/graffiti inscriber were above suspicion?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

police presence

Hello Mac.

"The City Police were certainly extra vigilant that night in terms of the amount of officers on the streets"

Indeed. Not to mention their orders.

And that has always puzzled me.

Ideas?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ruckus

Hello Neil. Thanks for that quote.

If I recall properly, Halse raised a real ruckus about Warren having the writing expunged.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Macbeth

Hello Tom. I was thinking in terms of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. Recall how they framed the 2 grooms by placing the bloody dagger near them.

"Frame" is merely parlance.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

The problem with the version of events that has the Ripper go away to a place a safety, clean up, come back out and dump the apron while possibly writing the graffiti is that this places him back in those streets while the hue and cry is going on and policemen like Halse were stopping and questioning any likely looking customer. I would guess having half a blood soaked apron about ones person would encourage any average copper to stop the culprit and ask questions.

It is often commented that it is remarkable that the Ripper managed to spirit himself away unseen yet presumably bloody after each attack. Yet he would have had usually several minutes head start and by the time the alarm was raised that would be ten minutes. He could be the best part of a mile away by the time a search was actually mounted. That explains why he wasn’t found by people alerted from the crime scene.
Yet re-entering the area with a major piece of incriminating evidence just so he can leave the apron and possibly inscribe the graffiti at that particular location makes no sense at all. He would have been incredibly lucky to avoid detection in and out and he would surely have ended up with more blood on his hands while depositing the apron.
Unless as some suggest he actually lived within a minute’s walk of that site in which case he is somewhat signposting his own locale. In geographical behavioural terms I would suggest that this would be so extremely unusual as to be discounted.

That is why it seems more likely that Long was wrong. If Long was a local policeman who went on to have a distinguished career then there would be less reason to doubt him. Long also got into verbal contortions during the inquest to cover his tracks.

Back to the graffiti:
Halse said it looked like it had been recently written.
It was said that had it been there any length of time it would have been brushed by people’s clothing as they passed in and out the doorway, and so smudged.
The buildings were very new and will have looked relatively clean and tidy.
How many people lived up that stairwell? I haven’t checked the 1891 census but at a guess there must have been at the very least 30. Don’t you suppose that had the graffiti been there a few days that one of them would have said so?

[ChrisGeorge]

If this is a full length apron worn by CE, then I can see why he would need to cut the apron for access.

I think you are wrong in that line of thinking, but. . .

Then why did he take the cut piece of apron with him?

[Trevor Marriott]

Possible, Trevor. The City Police were certainly extra vigilant that night in terms of the amount of officers on the streets - could have been the same for the Met. I would say, however, it was Long's first night patrolling that beat. If you want vigilance in that area then surely you'd send a policemen experienced with that beat who knows all the nooks and crannies.

But what of he was prompted a short time before he found it ?

[Fleetwood Mac]

What if he had been prompted to check for anyhting unusual ?

Possible, Trevor. The City Police were certainly extra vigilant that night in terms of the amount of officers on the streets - could have been the same for the Met. I would say, however, it was Long's first night patrolling that beat. If you want vigilance in that area then surely you'd send a policemen experienced with that beat who knows all the nooks and crannies.

[Malcolm X]

Astute comments by both of your goodselves

yes but you're still an idiot, only joking

[Trevor Marriott]

If this is a full length apron worn by CE, then I can see why he would need to cut the apron for access.

On reflection, I agree with Tom in that in the absence of an obvious flaw in Long's statements, it would seem a touch convenient to dismiss him in order to make the puzzle fit.

Although I am at a loss when attempting to understand why Long placed such significance to this apron. There was a market place nearby: surely it wasn't unusual to see rags and waste lying about. He didn't connect the apron to the Mitre Square murder; he assumed this was an unrelated murder. I suppose the obvious conclusion is that this rag was heavily bloodstained, i.e. sufficient blood to make this piece of rag out of the ordinary.

What if he had been prompted to check for anyhting unusual ?

[Fleetwood Mac]

If this is a full length apron worn by CE, then I can see why he would need to cut the apron for access.

On reflection, I agree with Tom in that in the absence of an obvious flaw in Long's statements, it would seem a touch convenient to dismiss him in order to make the puzzle fit.

Although I am at a loss when attempting to understand why Long placed such significance to this apron. There was a market place nearby: surely it wasn't unusual to see rags and waste lying about. He didn't connect the apron to the Mitre Square murder; he assumed this was an unrelated murder. I suppose the obvious conclusion is that this rag was heavily bloodstained, i.e. sufficient blood to make this piece of rag out of the ordinary.