Did Catherine know who JTR was???

[TomTomKent]

Wow, this is an interesting discussion! (and most of it way above my level I'm afraid).

I think it is possible that Catherine may have THOUGHT she knew who the Ripper was. After all, a lot of people THOUGHT they knew who the Ripper was. If her theory was correct or not, or indeed based on anything more than goissip and speculation, or the idea that "Such and Such looks strange" is another matter entirely.

In my experience, as soon as there is a high profile murder, kidnapping, or theft that makes page one of a newspaper, then somebody at work will "know" what "really" happened. why should folks of the time of JTR be any different?

[Monty]

Hey tnb

1) Geography. King Street, Bermondsey was just off New Road, which became the lower part of Tower Bridge Road around the time of the completion of Tower Bridge in 1894. Originally known as Bermondsey New Road, it ran from what is now the junction of Tower Bridge Road with Long Lane down to the New and Old Kent Roads. King Street was the second street on the right as you walked up New Road from the latter junction, roughly where Leroy Street is now. This map is from 1827:

http://users.bathspa.ac.uk/greenwood/map_g7u.html

and King Street can be seen roughly a quarter of the way down, in the centre.

Without Tower Bridge that's a steady 40-45 minute walk from Houndsditch, or in other words at least an hour and twenty-thirty minutes there and back, if Kelly meant Eddowes was going to meet him back where they had parted. Alternatively you can add another 10 minutes or so if she was going back to Flower and Dean Street to meet him.

Would The Thames Subway have any baring on that time?

Monty

[Addy]

Hi tnb,

I agree with you that Eddowes didn't go to see her daughter, she probably knew already she had moved. Perhaps she had found someone else to give her money (a sister or other relative?) that Kelly did not particularly like? So she kept things silent. And there is the obvious explanation, she went to "earn" it in the streets. However, whatever happened near Mitre Square, I don't think that is what she was doing that afternoon.

Indeed, she must have gotten money from somewhere, or someone else was paying for her drinks that afternoon.

Greetings,

Addy

[tnb]

Monty,

Fair point. Whoops! Yes, assuming Kate still had enough of the boots money left to afford the halfpenny fare each way, we can take off roughly 8-10 minutes each way if she used the Tower Subway. Personally I still feel that as she had lied to Kelly about visiting her daughter before that she may have been doing the same again, but your addition at least makes it a good deal more feasible that she may have been telling the truth on this occasion.


As regards the drinks business, I think Kelly was playing a bit of a clever game at the inquest with regards to Eddowes and their relationship, in terms of playing off what he said (positive) against what he didn't quite say (not so). For example, he says that she drunk only occasionally and never to excess, while he must have known that would be contradicted (as it was, most notably by Annie) and also reports little surprise or even concern when he was told about her arrest. He uses the loaded wording 'walking the streets' - in the first instance ONLY in relation to Kate - but then seemingly corrects himself by saying he only meant that if they didn't have a bed they would have to walk about all night. Now, plenty of people did have to do just that, as it was illegal to sleep on the streets at night, and Kelly was not an educated man - but this is not just a slip of the tongue. Kelly more than a lot of people would have known the connotations of that phrase, as would the jury, and such impressions stick. He then goes on to say that he knew of no-one who could have been buying her drinks, which coming after that inflammatory phrase especially would have raised the obvious question ''why would a stranger buy her drinks'' and the all-too-obvious answer.

To my mind, Kelly was concerned as to what might be revealed about their relationship (he was cagey about the row 'a long time ago - some months ago') and was getting his defence in first, whilst also trying to appear in a favourable light himself - ''If we had problems it was nothing to do with me, she was a drunk and an occasional prostitute. Not that I said that, I'm a gentleman, see?''

Whether that was the truth, or not, is another matter entirely.

Personally I do not think Kelly was party to the pawning or that he had any idea where Kate was or what she was up to for most of Saturday, but that is likely just me. As I say, I may elaborate further after some more research.

[Monty]

tnb

Monty,

Fair point. Whoops! Yes, assuming Kate still had enough of the boots money left to afford the halfpenny fare each way, we can take off roughly 8-10 minutes each way if she used the Tower Subway. Personally I still feel that as she had lied to Kelly about visiting her daughter before that she may have been doing the same again, but your addition at least makes it a good deal more feasible that she may have been telling the truth on this occasion.

That is an even better point.

I feel she would sooner walk the longer way as opposed to fork out the fare.

Monty

[harry]

Eddowes,when she made the remark about knowing the killer,JTR nickname at that time unknown,might have been alluding to only one of the three most recent murders,Tabram,Nicholls or Chapman,and accepting because the police and press said so,that all were connected.
Were her suspicions because of a possible connection of one victim with a person Eddowes felt was capable of murder,that connection being known to Eddowes.It seems improbable that she would stop and talk to such a person at that time of morning,but did she have a choice?Did he chance on her,and was she afraid to ignore him and rush off?Was she waiting for a police officer to approach,hoping regular patrols might appear at any moment.These questions cannot be answered,but there are possibilities.
It seems that if her suspicions were well founded,we should look at the people she would most likely know.Persons of her own class.

[Addy]

It has often been suggested that (some of) the victims knew each other, at least by sight. It could be possible, seeing they all lived in close proximity of each other.

Greetings,

Addy

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Harry somewhat echoes my beliefs, having had a notion for many years, that Eddowes was followed from the police station that morning, [as a sort of early hutchinson] by a police officer, with Kates consent.
Her assignment was to approach the man she had suspicions about, with the secure knowledge that she would be under close observations, if she should happen to encounter her suspect.
I believe the man that approached Bleinkensop [ the nightwatch man in orange place] was that officer, who simply had lost sight of Eddowes, whilst she and her killer were standing in Church passage.
Its quite likely she ventured into Mitre square with her killer, believing that she would be in no harm, as her shadower would be right behind her.
Far Fetched? mayby, however it could explain Eddowes allegedly saying she knew who the 'killer was.'
Also Blenkensops encounter and the question asked.
'Have you seen a man and woman pass this way?
And what about the classic quote..
Nobody saw the killer, unless a 'City PC.
Regards Richard.

[Monty]

Blenkinsopps sighting was most likely either Halse, Marriott or Outram in pursuit of the murderer.

Monty

[richardnunweek]

Hi Monty,
Quite possibly, but the time factor would not allow this, according to Blenkinsopps recollections the time the man approached was 130am, ruling out the searching for the killer surely, but right in line with someone trailing Eddowes.
Regards Richard.

[Monty]

Richard,

Blenkinsopp stated at about 1.30am, indicating he was not certain of the time.

If he was he would have said so, would have been asked why he was certain and, and this is telling, would have been called to inquest.

As would anyone involved in such an operation.

I cite the Stockwell tube station shooting and subsequent enquiry.

Monty

[richardnunweek]

Hi Monty,
The very fact that our Blenkensopp was not called anywhere, mayby was an desperate attempt to conceal the fact that a certain police officer failed to carry out a supervision job.
If I remember correctly the police went very silent after this murder, especially with the press.
Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Richard

It was pretty shoddy detective work if he`d lost Eddowes, she`d only travelled 400 yards in half an hour.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
Agreed.. however,
If one was trying to be discreit, when attempting to follow someone, at 1 am in the morning, then a distance between that person , especially if they encountered a possible suspect would be more likely to be further then nearer, and because of the blind spot ie Church passage, it is certainly conceivable that a tragic mistake was made.
Hey guys this is just a scenerio..
Regards Richard.

[bolo]

Hi Richard,

if we assume that Kate knew the identity of the murderer and told the officers on duty at Bishopsgate Street PS about her suspicion who in turn asked her to lead them to him, Kate must have known where to find the man or how to get in contact with him.

This poses several problems if we further assume that Liz Stride and Kate Eddowes got killed by the same man. According to Dr. Blackwell, Liz died between 12.45 and 1 a.m., that's between 45 minutes and an hour before Kate's mutilated body was found in Mitre Square. If as you say Kate agreed to being followed by a policeman who wanted her to approach the suspect, she must have known that the man would be in or around Mitre Square at that time. However, it seems highly unlikely that the Ripper who barely made it out of Dutfield's Yard hid in the shadows for a while, then headed westwards to one of his usual contact points in order to meet Kate and had the guts to quietly chat with her while being watched by three witnesses, all that while rumours of yet another ghastly murder were starting to spread in the whole of the East End.

I must say this pushes my open-mindedness to its limits...

Regards,

Boris