Did Catherine know who JTR was???

[Phil Carter]

Hello bolo,

If, as you write, your thoughts are indeed true, then I must say that it clearly opens up one possibility. Namely, that Eddowes' killer was not the same one as Stride's.

best wishes

Phil

Hi Richard,

if we assume that Kate knew the identity of the murderer and told the officers on duty at Bishopsgate Street PS about her suspicion who in turn asked her to lead them to him, Kate must have known where to find the man or how to get in contact with him.

This poses several problems if we further assume that Liz Stride and Kate Eddowes got killed by the same man. According to Dr. Blackwell, Liz died between 12.45 and 1 a.m., that's between 45 minutes and an hour before Kate's mutilated body was found in Mitre Square. If as you say Kate agreed to being followed by a policeman who wanted her to approach the suspect, she must have known that the man would be in or around Mitre Square at that time. However, it seems highly unlikely that the Ripper who barely made it out of Dutfield's Yard hid in the shadows for a while, then headed westwards to one of his usual contact points in order to meet Kate and had the guts to quietly chat with her while being watched by three witnesses, all that while rumours of yet another ghastly murder were starting to spread in the whole of the East End.

I must say this pushes my open-mindedness to its limits...

Regards,

Boris

[bolo]

Hi Phil,

Hello bolo,

If, as you write, your thoughts are indeed true, then I must say that it clearly opens up one possibility. Namely, that Eddowes' killer was not the same one as Stride's.

best wishes

Phil

yes, and it's still a matter of heated debates like this one: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3703 .

Let's put it this way, the medicos and police of the time probably were quite sure that both women were killed by the same man and I tend to believe them, simply because they had hands-on experience with the case and saw the victims' wounds (specially the throat cuts) in person.

Regards,

Boris

[Phil Carter]

Hello Boris,

I am of the humble opinion that there were at least 3 different murderers involved in the Whitechapel "killing spree".

However, I digress. Did Catharine Eddowes know her killer?... is the title of this thread.
Catharine Eddowes said she knew the identity of the "Ripper". If ONE of the victims knew the perpetrator of any of these crimes, did any of the other victims?

So therefore, I ask the question I asked earlier, namely, however many killers we are talking of, did the killer(s) know his7their victim(s)? That would change our view of things totally, would it not?

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Hi Phil,

Eddowes never said she knew who the killer was at all.

It was a news report based on hearsay. Never established, no supporting evidence, it was one of many 'stories' woven around the victims.

The kissing of Strides sister springs to mind.

The bottom line is that there is, so far, no essence of truth in that story.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

I agree entirely. I should have said supposedly said.......in conjunction with the title of the thread, that she knew the killer. Thank you for your correction.

Now, the only possibility I can see for her actually KNOWING the killer, is if Kelly, or another known to her, or them, is the killer.
In this conjunction, I have shown, together with Simon, evidence through Kelly's own testimony and the lodging house deputy's testimony, that causes concern, and SHOULD have caused concern to the police at the time.

(Best wishes for the London job by the way!)

best wishes

Phil

[Addy]

It would be interesting if Eddowes was leading a police officer to her suspect. It would also answer the question of this thread, as she was killed by the person she led the officer to.

However, I personally don't think so. If Stride was killed by the same man, and I think she was, he was interrupted before he could mutilate her. If he hadn't been, Stride would have been mutilated like the others were. It would have taken JtR longer to get away from Berner Street and he probably would have returned to his lodgings to escape. That means he would have evaded other people and Eddowes too. One of the theories on the Eddowes murder is that she was killed because he could not mutilate Stride.

Also, Eddowes murder took place more or less outside JtR "normal" area. How did she know that he would be there on that particular night in that particular area? I would expect her to lead a police officer around Dorset Street etc if she wanted to point out her suspect. It would again point to a prearranged meeting which I personally find a bit hard to believe, seeing what risks a prearranged meeting might also hold for the Ripper himself, because his intended victim might be leading someone towards him.

Again, all my own opinions!

Greetings,

Addy

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
I am not suggesting that Kate knew, that a person she may have thought could be a suspect was almost certain to be in the area of Mitre square at 1am, on that particular night, what I am suggesting is, rather like Hutchinson, she was being used to identify a person, if she came across him.
A decoy..
It was common policy for the met police to release drunks who clearly were not in any position to pay the morning fine, however I find it rather strange that a woman of the same class that had been murdered, ie Tabram/Nichols/Chapman, was released without concern on to the streets at that hour, who was rather hungover and pennyless.
A shameful act in itself.
I still believe that a cover up regarding police activity exsisted.
Regards Richard.

[ianincleveland]

Well thank you to all who have contributed to my thread,some very interesting posts.

Now i imagine the one topic of conversation in autumn of 1888 in the East End was the Whitechapel murders,you can imagine the sort of conversations in lodging houses and pubs.

Another theory i have on the same lines is Kate may well have said(possibly loudly) in her drunk state that she knew who JTR was.Its possible JTR was listening to this and decided she had to go.The person Kate said was JTR possibly wasnt else would she have got herself stuck in a dark corner of a deserted square???But JTR heard of her arrest and followed her from police station at Bishopsgate and then killed her in Miitre Square.

Think meself that theres something about this murder that we dont know,for instance assuming Kelly was killed by JTR(personally im not at all sure)JTR went and lay low for best part of 6 weeks,so was he worried that by killing Kate he could be traced????

[Suzi]

Hi all
As Monty said earlier there is a lot of rather romantic/attractive ideas about Kate and her story/stories.

We start with the fire engine image outside 29, Aldgate High St -discovered by PC Louis Robinson at 8.30 pm- entrancing in it's way - Then we move onto the 'I knew the Ripper and came back to get the reward' lines.

Strangely these alluring concepts - mostly from newspapermen have muddied the waters- we can all go with this romantic idea- but the reality of Kate's last afternoon is a mystery indeed.

All we have is Kate (Calling herself 'Nothing') at Bishopsgate Police Station having been picked up in Aldgate High St by PC Louis Robinson at 8.30p.m and then finally released with a Goodnight Old C **k at 1.00 am to her doom. 'Too Late to get anymore drink' and 'I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home' is reality- is so sad- but recorded.

Nothing is known, or probably ever will be about her early (Leaving Kelly) afternoon or the apres Bishopsgate period.

Kate is interesting in many ways - we know a lot about her life and her 'oppin' trip etc alongside the Emily Birrell pawn ticket for a man's shirt and Kelly's boots- which at the end of the day identified her.

Kelly thought she'd been banged up for drunkeness and seemed happy for that- for a while.

Lawende,Levy and Harris of course give us a timing as to when Kate met her end.

To read through Kate's list of belongings is probably the saddest thing in the world

Suzi

[Fleetwood Mac]

Another theory i have on the same lines is Kate may well have said(possibly loudly) in her drunk state that she knew who JTR was.Its possible JTR was listening to this and decided she had to go.The person Kate said was JTR possibly wasnt else would she have got herself stuck in a dark corner of a deserted square???But JTR heard of her arrest and followed her from police station at Bishopsgate and then killed her in Miitre Square.

I wonder what the odds are of her knowing Jack the Ripper......pretty high considering no one else did and she spent a fair amount of time under the influence....so her reasoning capacity wasn't spot on. Combine this with the odds of mentioning she knew him in the company of Jack the Ripper......and you have more chance of winning the lottery than your theory being accurate. In all probablity she was walking home and bumped into him - perhaps in her mind she may have avoided a hiding had she turned up at home with some money. Would agree with Suzi - what an absolute mess of an existence - it ain't really living - merely subsistence on a par with a burrow owl (even a burrow owl can find food and shelter).

Anyway - more interesting is that if you accept this one was a ripper murder - then it lends weight to the one earlier in the night being a ripper murder. But what was he doing outside of the usual spot - going home? Wanted to finish what he started and needed some breathing space? When you weigh up the risk of being caught due to the earlier murder and the need to kill again - does this suggest that night was a window of opportunity that he wouldn't have for a few weeks or so?

Think meself that theres something about this murder that we dont know,for instance assuming Kelly was killed by JTR(personally im not at all sure)JTR went and lay low for best part of 6 weeks,so was he worried that by killing Kate he could be traced????

I'd imagine there's some details that were never recorded with the police being the only ones privy to them. The one that seems to stand out is the claim that Lawende didn't get a good look at the bloke. Well.....why take him on ID parades? I suppose the police could have thought it worthwhile even where seen as a long shot....but then if he pointed someone out would you rely on the testimony of someone who claimed to not have had much of a look of the bloke? Seems contradictory to me. I'd say there's a good chance he did get a good look at him and the police knew this. But then why report the opposite? What was in it for the police? That where they reported he could be IDd the police thought the killer may have left the area and never been caught?

[Suzi]

Hi FM
Personally I think the odds of Kate actually knowing the Ripper are 100,000,000 - 1 .......She may have known some dodgy characters- and lets be honest- they were legion- she was familiar with them all!
Maybe- just maybe she had some sort of idea- unlikely though.....

IMHO the man responsible was a 'grey man' someone known maybe but unseen/invisible and trusted in some way by the poor victims.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM
Personally I think the odds of Kate actually knowing the Ripper are 100,000,000 - 1 .......She may have known some dodgy characters- and lets be honest- they were legion- she was familiar with them all!
Maybe- just maybe she had some sort of idea- unlikely though.....

IMHO the man responsible was a 'grey man' someone known maybe but unseen/invisible and trusted in some way by the poor victims.

Hi Suzi....

I don't think he would have had to have induced trust in the victims at all. I feel the obvious is the answer is here; that is that the women had been drinking and therefore wouldn't have spotted danger in the way a sober woman would have had her wits about her - and they were prostitutes which means they were in the business of going into dark corners with strange men. No great mystery in that for me.

What is interesting is why he was in that area and why Lawende didn't get a look at the bloke but the police were prepared to rely on his testimony in an ID parade.

[Addy]

Begg has suggested in The Facts that it could have been Schwartz who was the witness identifying a suspect. That would solve the problem.

Greetings,

Addy

[Fleetwood Mac]

Begg has suggested in The Facts that it could have been Schwartz who was the witness identifying a suspect. That would solve the problem.

Greetings,

Addy

Addy....my understanding is/was that Lawende was definitely used in an ID parade...Sadler? Grainger?....what is the evidence to support the idea it was Schwartz rather than Lawende?

[Addy]

Hi FM,

I understand Lawende was indeed used during some identification, I believe in Sadlers'. Later on, in the Swanson notes, Swanson noted that a witness had been brought to the Seaside home to identify someone and he did make a positive identification however refused to make an official identificattion, the suspect being a fellow Jew.

I don't have the book with me at the moment, however Begg stated that Lawende was used in the line up for Grainger and Sadler, however Kosminski had been identified some weeks previous. Begg reasons that if Lawende had already identified Kosminski, it would be useless to ask him to identify someone else some weeks later as the person he saw. As it is known (his words, not mine) that Lawende was used in the line up for Sadler and Grainger, the witness with Kosminski must have been someone else. Schwartz was the only possible candidate, as he saw Stride attacked.

Greetings,

Addy