Did Catherine know who JTR was???

[DVV]

The fact that there is no official documention of Lawende's involvement in the Sadler and Grainger cases isn't a scoop.
But it certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Amitiés,
David

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is no official documentation that Lawende was used for an identification attempt of either Sadler or Grainger. Newspaper stories don't count -- especially when witness names aren't given.

I'd agree. Newspaper reports - second hand stories and sensationalism. I was under the impression that it was official - and on hearing the above it renders Lawende no more important than anyone else.

[DVV]

Funny.
I was referring to Begg's reasoning, according to which Lawende has indeed been called in the Sadler and Grainger cases.

[Scott Nelson]

assumptions

There is no official documentation that Lawende was used for an identification attempt of either Sadler or Grainger. Newspaper stories don't count -- especially when witness names aren't given.

[DVV]

The problem with Begg's reasoning is that, if Schwartz was such a good witness (according to Begg, Lawende "was such a bad witness that Anderson was unlikely to have placed such credence in him"), why would the police have called Lawende in the Sadler and Grainger cases ?

Amitiés,
David

[Addy]

Hi FM,

I understand Lawende was indeed used during some identification, I believe in Sadlers'. Later on, in the Swanson notes, Swanson noted that a witness had been brought to the Seaside home to identify someone and he did make a positive identification however refused to make an official identificattion, the suspect being a fellow Jew.

I don't have the book with me at the moment, however Begg stated that Lawende was used in the line up for Grainger and Sadler, however Kosminski had been identified some weeks previous. Begg reasons that if Lawende had already identified Kosminski, it would be useless to ask him to identify someone else some weeks later as the person he saw. As it is known (his words, not mine) that Lawende was used in the line up for Sadler and Grainger, the witness with Kosminski must have been someone else. Schwartz was the only possible candidate, as he saw Stride attacked.

Greetings,

Addy

[Fleetwood Mac]

Begg has suggested in The Facts that it could have been Schwartz who was the witness identifying a suspect. That would solve the problem.

Greetings,

Addy

Addy....my understanding is/was that Lawende was definitely used in an ID parade...Sadler? Grainger?....what is the evidence to support the idea it was Schwartz rather than Lawende?

[Addy]

Begg has suggested in The Facts that it could have been Schwartz who was the witness identifying a suspect. That would solve the problem.

Greetings,

Addy

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM
Personally I think the odds of Kate actually knowing the Ripper are 100,000,000 - 1 .......She may have known some dodgy characters- and lets be honest- they were legion- she was familiar with them all!
Maybe- just maybe she had some sort of idea- unlikely though.....

IMHO the man responsible was a 'grey man' someone known maybe but unseen/invisible and trusted in some way by the poor victims.

Hi Suzi....

I don't think he would have had to have induced trust in the victims at all. I feel the obvious is the answer is here; that is that the women had been drinking and therefore wouldn't have spotted danger in the way a sober woman would have had her wits about her - and they were prostitutes which means they were in the business of going into dark corners with strange men. No great mystery in that for me.

What is interesting is why he was in that area and why Lawende didn't get a look at the bloke but the police were prepared to rely on his testimony in an ID parade.

[Suzi]

Hi FM
Personally I think the odds of Kate actually knowing the Ripper are 100,000,000 - 1 .......She may have known some dodgy characters- and lets be honest- they were legion- she was familiar with them all!
Maybe- just maybe she had some sort of idea- unlikely though.....

IMHO the man responsible was a 'grey man' someone known maybe but unseen/invisible and trusted in some way by the poor victims.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Another theory i have on the same lines is Kate may well have said(possibly loudly) in her drunk state that she knew who JTR was.Its possible JTR was listening to this and decided she had to go.The person Kate said was JTR possibly wasnt else would she have got herself stuck in a dark corner of a deserted square???But JTR heard of her arrest and followed her from police station at Bishopsgate and then killed her in Miitre Square.

I wonder what the odds are of her knowing Jack the Ripper......pretty high considering no one else did and she spent a fair amount of time under the influence....so her reasoning capacity wasn't spot on. Combine this with the odds of mentioning she knew him in the company of Jack the Ripper......and you have more chance of winning the lottery than your theory being accurate. In all probablity she was walking home and bumped into him - perhaps in her mind she may have avoided a hiding had she turned up at home with some money. Would agree with Suzi - what an absolute mess of an existence - it ain't really living - merely subsistence on a par with a burrow owl (even a burrow owl can find food and shelter).

Anyway - more interesting is that if you accept this one was a ripper murder - then it lends weight to the one earlier in the night being a ripper murder. But what was he doing outside of the usual spot - going home? Wanted to finish what he started and needed some breathing space? When you weigh up the risk of being caught due to the earlier murder and the need to kill again - does this suggest that night was a window of opportunity that he wouldn't have for a few weeks or so?

Think meself that theres something about this murder that we dont know,for instance assuming Kelly was killed by JTR(personally im not at all sure)JTR went and lay low for best part of 6 weeks,so was he worried that by killing Kate he could be traced????

I'd imagine there's some details that were never recorded with the police being the only ones privy to them. The one that seems to stand out is the claim that Lawende didn't get a good look at the bloke. Well.....why take him on ID parades? I suppose the police could have thought it worthwhile even where seen as a long shot....but then if he pointed someone out would you rely on the testimony of someone who claimed to not have had much of a look of the bloke? Seems contradictory to me. I'd say there's a good chance he did get a good look at him and the police knew this. But then why report the opposite? What was in it for the police? That where they reported he could be IDd the police thought the killer may have left the area and never been caught?

[Suzi]

Hi all
As Monty said earlier there is a lot of rather romantic/attractive ideas about Kate and her story/stories.

We start with the fire engine image outside 29, Aldgate High St -discovered by PC Louis Robinson at 8.30 pm- entrancing in it's way - Then we move onto the 'I knew the Ripper and came back to get the reward' lines.

Strangely these alluring concepts - mostly from newspapermen have muddied the waters- we can all go with this romantic idea- but the reality of Kate's last afternoon is a mystery indeed.

All we have is Kate (Calling herself 'Nothing') at Bishopsgate Police Station having been picked up in Aldgate High St by PC Louis Robinson at 8.30p.m and then finally released with a Goodnight Old C **k at 1.00 am to her doom. 'Too Late to get anymore drink' and 'I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home' is reality- is so sad- but recorded.

Nothing is known, or probably ever will be about her early (Leaving Kelly) afternoon or the apres Bishopsgate period.

Kate is interesting in many ways - we know a lot about her life and her 'oppin' trip etc alongside the Emily Birrell pawn ticket for a man's shirt and Kelly's boots- which at the end of the day identified her.

Kelly thought she'd been banged up for drunkeness and seemed happy for that- for a while.

Lawende,Levy and Harris of course give us a timing as to when Kate met her end.

To read through Kate's list of belongings is probably the saddest thing in the world

Suzi

[ianincleveland]

Well thank you to all who have contributed to my thread,some very interesting posts.

Now i imagine the one topic of conversation in autumn of 1888 in the East End was the Whitechapel murders,you can imagine the sort of conversations in lodging houses and pubs.

Another theory i have on the same lines is Kate may well have said(possibly loudly) in her drunk state that she knew who JTR was.Its possible JTR was listening to this and decided she had to go.The person Kate said was JTR possibly wasnt else would she have got herself stuck in a dark corner of a deserted square???But JTR heard of her arrest and followed her from police station at Bishopsgate and then killed her in Miitre Square.

Think meself that theres something about this murder that we dont know,for instance assuming Kelly was killed by JTR(personally im not at all sure)JTR went and lay low for best part of 6 weeks,so was he worried that by killing Kate he could be traced????

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
I am not suggesting that Kate knew, that a person she may have thought could be a suspect was almost certain to be in the area of Mitre square at 1am, on that particular night, what I am suggesting is, rather like Hutchinson, she was being used to identify a person, if she came across him.
A decoy..
It was common policy for the met police to release drunks who clearly were not in any position to pay the morning fine, however I find it rather strange that a woman of the same class that had been murdered, ie Tabram/Nichols/Chapman, was released without concern on to the streets at that hour, who was rather hungover and pennyless.
A shameful act in itself.
I still believe that a cover up regarding police activity exsisted.
Regards Richard.

[Addy]

It would be interesting if Eddowes was leading a police officer to her suspect. It would also answer the question of this thread, as she was killed by the person she led the officer to.

However, I personally don't think so. If Stride was killed by the same man, and I think she was, he was interrupted before he could mutilate her. If he hadn't been, Stride would have been mutilated like the others were. It would have taken JtR longer to get away from Berner Street and he probably would have returned to his lodgings to escape. That means he would have evaded other people and Eddowes too. One of the theories on the Eddowes murder is that she was killed because he could not mutilate Stride.

Also, Eddowes murder took place more or less outside JtR "normal" area. How did she know that he would be there on that particular night in that particular area? I would expect her to lead a police officer around Dorset Street etc if she wanted to point out her suspect. It would again point to a prearranged meeting which I personally find a bit hard to believe, seeing what risks a prearranged meeting might also hold for the Ripper himself, because his intended victim might be leading someone towards him.

Again, all my own opinions!

Greetings,

Addy