Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[Sam Flynn]

I decided to look back a little further in time and found this handy chart, which lists the most popular female given names in Britain over the centuries.

As you can see, throughout the 19th C. the most common female name was Mary.
(In the 18th C. it was the second-most-popular, being beat out by 'Elizabeth'.)

The two most popular middle names for someone named Mary are 'Ann' and 'Jane'.

... and Eddowes' "common-law" surname was "Kelly". QED.

Thanks for the chart, Arch. Most useful.

[Sam Flynn]

...and we also know Mary Ann Cox of Dorset Street....your point is well made. Finding names of known people within the names Kate gives isnt that difficult,...explaining why 2 aliases that she used in the last 24 hours of her life when combined are essentially the name and address of the very next Ripper victim, is more difficult.

"When combined", Mike? With respect, that sounds a bit desperate to me - and it hardly gets around the point about "John David Smith/John Edward Smith", does it?

[Sam Flynn]

"everyone seems to be assuming that MJK's 'real' name was Mary Jane and that the Marie Jeanette was given to her later, either by Barnett or while she was in France or whatever. Do we know this is definitely the right way round?"

Perhaps someone does, but, regrettably, I do not. Indeed, for aught I know, it could be as you suppose. I daresay Gareth may know the answer. It would be interesting to ascertain the truth in this case.

Hi Lynn - it's noticeable that it's only Barnett who used this appellation. Others, including those who'd known Kelly after her alleged return from France, refer to her invariably as "Mary Jane".

[Archaic]

Most Common 19th C. Female Names

Hi, folks.

As anyone who does a bit of family genealogy quickly discovers, the most popular female name in Britain, Ireland, and America during the late 19th & early 20th C. was 'Mary'. (The most popular male name was 'John'.)

I decided to look back a little further in time and found this handy chart, which lists the most popular female given names in Britain over the centuries.

As you can see, throughout the 19th C. the most common female name was Mary.
(In the 18th C. it was the second-most-popular, being beat out by 'Elizabeth'.)

The two most popular middle names for someone named Mary are 'Ann' and 'Jane'.

So if a 19th C. woman wanted an alias for any reason, any combination of those common names would be a convenient choice.

Best regards, Archaic

PS: The giving of an alias to a pawn-broker makes me wonder if perhaps stolen goods were being pawned?
But then again, some people are just wary of giving their real names for anything even remotely "official".

[Chava]

...and we also know Mary Ann Cox of Dorset Street....your point is well made. Finding names of known people within the names Kate gives isnt that difficult,...explaining why 2 aliases that she used in the last 24 hours of her life when combined are essentially the name and address of the very next Ripper victim, is more difficult.

Cheers Jon

I would caution reading too much into Eddowes's choice of names. Kelly must have been as common in that area as Smith. Maybe more so! And Mary and Jane are common names as well, and often found together. If Eddowes wanted to disguise her identity, she probably chose the commonest name she could find. Nasty coincidence that the next victim was called Mary Jane Kelly. At least she may have been called Mary Jane Kelly. Personally I think 'Mary Jane Kelly' was as much a nom de guerre for her as 'Mary Anne Kelly' or 'Jane Kelly' was for Eddowes.

Hello

The first victim was called Mary Ann Nichols too.

...and we also know Mary Ann Cox of Dorset Street....your point is well made. Finding names of known people within the names Kate gives isnt that difficult,...explaining why 2 aliases that she used in the last 24 hours of her life when combined are essentially the name and address of the very next Ripper victim, is more difficult.

Cheers Jon

[Jon Guy]

Hello

The first victim was called Mary Ann Nichols too.

Catherine Eddowes, like many women living in the East End, used the name Kelly because that was the name of her then “husband,” John Kelly (just as she used the name Conway when living with Thomas Conway).

Where did the name Mary Ann come from? Mark King, writing in Ripperana #12 (April, 1995), has shown that John Kelly’s “wife,” the one before Eddowes, was named Mary Ann Kelly and that Eddowes would have known her since she died at 55 Flower and Dean Street, the same address Eddowes and Kelly lived, on 15 May, 1888.

Wolf.

The above in bold is what I question Wolf.....where do we have evidence that Kate also called herself Kelly as she did with Conway,...who had her tattooed with his surname initials? Like cattle.

And where do we then get Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street for the boots?

There is ample room for suggestion that Kate used 2 versions of a name of someone she knew and at least one of those included the street the woman lived on with just the second digit of her address.

My personal belief is that perhaps Crossinghams is a place of local information and where local characters might learn of each other. If not there, at one of the Pubs on Dorset.

Cheers Wolf

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Catherine Eddowes, like many women living in the East End, used the name Kelly because that was the name of her then “husband,” John Kelly (just as she used the name Conway when living with Thomas Conway).

Where did the name Mary Ann come from? Mark King, writing in Ripperana #12 (April, 1995), has shown that John Kelly’s “wife,” the one before Eddowes, was named Mary Ann Kelly and that Eddowes would have known her since she died at 55 Flower and Dean Street, the same address Eddowes and Kelly lived, on 15 May, 1888.

Wolf.

Hi,
'I have come back to claim the reward money, i know who the whitechapel murderer is' says Eddowes.
Jane kelly 6, Dorset street[ not 26] she informs the pawnbroker,
Mary Ann kelly, of flower and dean street she tells the desk sergeant.
It is a big coincedence that out of the five words used, three of them add up to the next victims name.
I appreciate that she was living with a man called kelly, but so was Mary, according to McCarthy ' She came to live with a man called kelly, and as she posed as his wife, became known as Mary Jane Kelly'.
Of course this was Barnett , but originally was thought to have been Kelly.
Is it not possible that someone was searching for a Mary , who lived with a man called kelly.?
But for that scenerio to be plausible, the last two killings would not be related . to the others.
A great many of us dismiss Stride as a victim of the Ripper, so is it not possible that the person who claimed the lifes of Nichols, and Chapman, killed no more.
Remember the letter of the 24th sptember, which starts ' I do wish to give myself up, I am in misery with nightmare'
Then in the Letter which incidently was sent to Sir Charles Warren, one day before the infamous 'Dear Boss' states the following ' I have found the woman that I Wanted that was Chapman'.
If he had found the woman that he was looking for, mayby he killed no more, just like someone who was looking for the woman kelly.
Just rambling on , but bits to ponder over.
RegardsRichard.

It is good and very prudent that we pay attention to information that strikes us as curious, whether it all means something relevant though is undetermined.

I think some of your thoughts above are logical trains of thought and quite reasonable Richard.

Best regards mate

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
'I have come back to claim the reward money, i know who the whitechapel murderer is' says Eddowes.
Jane kelly 6, Dorset street[ not 26] she informs the pawnbroker,
Mary Ann kelly, of flower and dean street she tells the desk sergeant.
It is a big coincedence that out of the five words used, three of them add up to the next victims name.
I appreciate that she was living with a man called kelly, but so was Mary, according to McCarthy ' She came to live with a man called kelly, and as she posed as his wife, became known as Mary Jane Kelly'.
Of course this was Barnett , but originally was thought to have been Kelly.
Is it not possible that someone was searching for a Mary , who lived with a man called kelly.?
But for that scenerio to be plausible, the last two killings would not be related . to the others.
A great many of us dismiss Stride as a victim of the Ripper, so is it not possible that the person who claimed the lifes of Nichols, and Chapman, killed no more.
Remember the letter of the 24th sptember, which starts ' I do wish to give myself up, I am in misery with nightmare'
Then in the Letter which incidently was sent to Sir Charles Warren, one day before the infamous 'Dear Boss' states the following ' I have found the woman that I Wanted that was Chapman'.
If he had found the woman that he was looking for, mayby he killed no more, just like someone who was looking for the woman kelly.
Just rambling on , but bits to ponder over.
RegardsRichard.

[tnb]

Michael - maybe they misheard and she was really saying 'neenaw neenaw' then!

This 'nothing' does concern me a little.

If Kate was used to using aliases (as she clearly was) why say 'nothing' rather than pull one of them 'out of the hat'? She had, as perry said, used 2 similar ones within the last 24 hours, so why different this time?

Unless she was just being stroppy - or so drunk she couldn't even remember her own lies!

Its stated in some sources that Kate was picked up while imitating a fire engine....so what I set in bold above is likely why she was "uncooperative" providing some kind of name tnb. She gave the name "nothing" when she was first brought to the station.

Best regards

[Scott Nelson]

Maybe "Jeanette" was her last name and "Kelly" was an alias.

[tnb]

This 'nothing' does concern me a little.

If Kate was used to using aliases (as she clearly was) why say 'nothing' rather than pull one of them 'out of the hat'? She had, as perry said, used 2 similar ones within the last 24 hours, so why different this time?

Unless she was just being stroppy - or so drunk she couldn't even remember her own lies!