Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[curious]

Hello Kat,

Emma... would that be a forshortning of Emily?...and also..she was known in the newspapers as Mary (Jane) Lawrence... how about Emily Lawrence?

best wishes

Phil

Emma could also be short for Emmaline. Of course, my grandmother went simply by "Em" pronounced M.

curious

[Phil Carter]

Hello Kat,

Emma... would that be a forshortning of Emily?...and also..she was known in the newspapers as Mary (Jane) Lawrence... how about Emily Lawrence?

best wishes

Phil

[KatBradshaw]

Just looked on Ancestry, NO Eimear Kellys anywhere!

[KatBradshaw]

Something which has occured to me and I find interesting is Kelly's nickname of 'Fair Emma'. Not a very Irish name, Emma. Actually its one of my middle names. Possibly Eimear (or varitations of that name), but not Emma.
Anyone checked for Eimear Kelly's???

[lynn cates]

unconfirmed

Hello Suzi. It IS a highly controversial remark and completely unconfirmed.

In fact, are we even certain that Kate passed the night at the casual ward? After all, John Kelly testified that he and Kate pawned some boots on Friday night or Saturday morning, whilst he stood there in his bare feet. The pawn ticket was produced and dated Friday. So if John and Kate have 2s 6d on Friday night, surely they could go from 4d for a doss for John and 2d for a casual for Kate to 8d for a double. But perhaps they were thrifty? He did testify that after they met bright and early (8 AM) next morning, they blew the whole sum on food and drink. If so, doubtless the tuppence would come in handy.

The best.
LC

[Suzi]

Friday the 28th. The comment, supposedly, comes from the Superintendent of the Casual Ward in Shoe Lane where Eddowes was reported to have stayed for at least some of that night.

This is a highly spurious reference

[Sam Flynn]

Hello all,
Just to throw a further spanner into the works...

Catharine Eddowes used "Mary Ann Kelly"
Catharine Eddowes had a sister called Elizabeth Fisher
Mary Jane Kelly was also known as Lizzie Fisher

... as reported, in almost identical words, by:

Macleod Gazette
Kellogg Enterprise
Bismarck Tribune
Atchison Daily Globe
Trenton Times
Manitoba Free Press
Edwardsville Intelligencer
New York Tribune
Boston Daily Globe
Williamsport Sunday Grit
New York Herald
Montreal Gazette
Ottowa Citizen
Stevens Point Journal

Thats taking it in to the realms of the Lincoln - Kennedy, Kennedy - Lincoln, thing.

You're not far wrong there, Kat. It seems that the "Lizzie Fisher" alias was mainly covered by the American/Canadian press. There's no references to the alias in any local (British) papers that I've been able to find.

Oh the power of co-incidence eh?

Oh, the power of ill-informed overseas reporters, Phil I've no doubt that they based their reportage on a single press-agency source that confused Eddowes' "Elizabeth Fisher" as an alias for Mary Kelly.

[KatBradshaw]

Thats taking it in to the realms of the Lincoln - Kennedy, Kennedy - Lincoln, thing.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,
Just to throw a further spanner into the works...

Catharine Eddowes used "Mary Ann Kelly"
Catharine Eddowes had a sister called Elizabeth Fisher
Mary Jane Kelly was also known as Lizzie Fisher

Oh the power of co-incidence eh?

best wishes

Phil

[Sam Flynn]

Friday the 28th. The comment, supposedly, comes from the Superintendent of the Casual Ward in Shoe Lane where Eddowes was reported to have stayed for at least some of that night.

I posted the source for this (almost certainly a myth) yesterday, but my post has gone AWOL. Anyhow, for the record, the sole origin of this story is the East London Observer of the 13th October 1888:

A reporter gleaned some curious information from the Casual Ward Superintendent of Mile End, regarding Kate Eddowes, the Mitre-square victim. She was formerly well-known in the casual wards there, but had disappeared for a considerable time until the Friday preceding her murder. Asking the woman where she had been in the interval, the superintendent was met with the reply, that she had been in the country "hopping". "But," added the woman, "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." "Mind he doesn't murder you too" replied the superintendent jocularly. "Oh, no fear of that," was the remark made by Kate Eddowes as she left. Within four-and-twenty hours afterwards she was a mutilated corpse.

What I make of it is that the only source for this "curious story" is one "gleaned" by a reporter from a niche newspaper, written with a dash of melodrama ("within 24 hours she was a mutilated corpse"... da-da-daaaah!), and with a good sprinkling of "authentic" banter thrown in for good measure.

Frankly, I'd take the story with a shovel-full of salt.

[DVV]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing obscure about....

Hi Sox,

I admit your arguments are valid, but the problem is that you solely rely on the inquest papers.
Which are a mere summary of what was said, and do not transcribe the questions asked to the witnesses by the coroner.
That's why the whole sentence of Barnett makes no sense... Why finishing it by their own quarrels?
Another summary is that of The Times:

"He [Barnett] did not think deceased feared anyone in particular, but she used to ask witness to read to her everything about the murders. She occasionally quarrelled with witness, but not often and seldom with anybody else."

As clear as the inquest papers, to say the least.

And it's also worth going to the Daily Telegraph, where questions are transcribed (not all, however, and Barnett isn't quoted in full).
There you will find Barnett saying :
"Yes, several times [ie: she seemed afraid of someone]"
in sharp contrast with his :
"No, Sir [she didn't seem to fear any individual]"
as if Mary was simply afraid of the WM.

Which seems indicated by the mention of him reading the papers to her, significantly put by Barnett between his "Yes" and his "No".

Amitiés,
David

[Monty]

There is no supporting evidence that Eddowes made such a claim, either from relatives, friends or the Superindendent himself.

This really should be made clear.

Monty

[Sox]

Sox
When did Kate say that she had come back to claim the reward?

Friday the 28th. The comment, supposedly, comes from the Superintendent of the Casual Ward in Shoe Lane where Eddowes was reported to have stayed for at least some of that night.

[Jon Guy]

Pearly Poll Mary Ann Connolly

[corey123]

Do they? Damn it I must play this game better

Appologies to Don that we have taken this off track.
To go back to the point I thought I might suggest we make a list of the Mary Anns that we know in the case.

1. Mary Ann Cox.
2. Mary Ann Nichols.
3. Mary Ann Kelly, John Kelly's first wife
4. A Mary Ann who identified one of the victims, sorry am in my folks car and can't check.

Mary ann monk who identifyed nichols.
she was another inmate at the workhouse.