Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[j.r-ahde]

Hello tnb!

jr - do you have a source that the 'Marie Jeanette' was definitely an invention of Barnett'? I can't say I have ever seen such.

Sorry, I should have expressed myself more clearly; what I meant, was, that it was obviously Joe Barnett, who got the French version to the tombstone.

The "Marie Jeanette" was very obviously invented by MJK herself! She told herself to have been in France...

All the best
Jukka

[curious]

Well over a thousand.What if Eddowes was a bloke, and she'd chosen the pseudonym "John Edward Smith", and the next Ripper victim was a "John David Smith"? Would the "90% argument" be particularly impressive then?

Not really.

However, if you were investigating the case, you'd need to check it out because you could not be certain.

What you have with Eddowes, though, is a little more than that.

She used both variations in one day. She used Jane Kelly to pawn boots and would have had the pawn ticket on her person and perhaps given up for inventory at the police station, and Mary Ann Kelly another ---

Whoever checked her in at the jail had access to both.

If someone were looking for a "Mary Jane Kelly" would they not have taken notice?

curious

I know you know this Sam, but in case others didnt know how I came up with the letters......Kate called herself Jane Kelly of #6 Dorset St to the pawnbroker when she tales Johns boots in, and Saturday night when she sobers up, after first giving her name as "nothing" when booked,...she was Mary Ann Kelly of Flower and Dean or Fashion St....I believe the latter.

Best regards

Well over a thousand.What if Eddowes was a bloke, and she'd chosen the pseudonym "John Edward Smith", and the next Ripper victim was a "John David Smith"? Would the "90% argument" be particularly impressive then?

Hi Sam,

The context with which I could make that statement remains valid despite your concerns that it is so much "coincidence".

The facts are that within 24 hours of her murder which was thought to be committed by Jack the Ripper, she uses 2 aliases which when taken as a whole, have this much in common with the name and address of the next victim that is attributed to Jack the Ripper,

Mary Jane Kelly, 26 Dorset St.

The letters in bold are within the 2, combined, aliases.

Since we do not have records, to my knowledge, that show us that Kate often used the surname Kelly due to her relationship with John I think the fact that she does 2 times in her last 24 hours may be significant. When juxtaposed within the Canonical Group.

Best regards Gareth

[lynn cates]

which way

Hello TNB.

"everyone seems to be assuming that MJK's 'real' name was Mary Jane and that the Marie Jeanette was given to her later, either by Barnett or while she was in France or whatever. Do we know this is definitely the right way round?"

Perhaps someone does, but, regrettably, I do not. Indeed, for aught I know, it could be as you suppose. I daresay Gareth may know the answer. It would be interesting to ascertain the truth in this case.

The best.
LC

[tnb]

jr - do you have a source that the 'Marie Jeanette' was definitely an invention of Barnett'? I can't say I have ever seen such.

Kelly was indeed a common Irish name, it was also for the same reason one of the most common names taken on/given to Irish immigrants. Then again, so is 'Jones' one of the most common Welsh names and yet I have several neighbours who genuinely are called Jones. Just because it would be an obvious alias doesn't mean it necesarily always is.


Forgive me playing devil's advocate here a little - but everyone seems to be assuming that MJK's 'real' name was Mary Jane and that the Marie Jeanette was given to her later, either by Barnett or while she was in France or whatever. Do we know this is definitely the right way round? As no-one has ever succesfully located Mary Jane (or for that matter Marie Jeanette) in any records, I can't see how we can say either was definitely her original name. Is it not just as possible her real name was Marie Jeanette and that became in turn Mary Jane? Because I seem to be the only person who thinks this is possible - am I missing something?

Thanks Lynn!

[lynn cates]

points

Hello TNB.

"As far as I can remember I have never seen reference to Kate using 'Conway' by 1888; do you know if I am wrong? "

I think that is correct. It would make good sense.

"One other thing has always bothered me here - if you've identified someone at or been tipped off by someone at or nearby to Bishopsgate police station that the 'Mary Kelly' you are looking for may have been spotted, why on earth (presumably) follow them all the way to Mitre Square before attacking them? Even today there are plenty of dark corners en route where in the middle of the night it would be just as easy to strike (and much easier than risking losing them on the way)?"

Excellent point. I would have guessed a mere, "Oh, miss? Come with me please. Here's something that might interest you.."

"With regard to MJK's 'Marie Jeanette' version of her name, am I right in thinking this is the version on her gravestone?"

That is my understanding, and I think I have seen it as such. (Of course, you are dealing with an old person whose memory may fail.)

"assuming procedure was roughly similar in 1888 it would suggest that at least some form of ID (perhaps even as informal as a letter) giving the 'Marie Jeanette' version would have had to have been seen by someone, suggesting that she lived by that version at least some of the time."

I think that could be used as her "professional name" possibly leading to higher fees.

Good luck in investigating this.

The best.
LC

[curious]

Hello TNB. 2 ancillary questions might be pertinent here.

2. Was the French form given or merely adopted by Kelly.

The best.
LC

Didn't Kelly spend a little time in France, according to what she told Barnett?

She could have adopted it then.

From what I'm reading, it seems there's very little about her that can be verified -- likely including the trip to Paris.

Perhaps she was there to ply her trade, or perhaps to meet someone -- say John Walsh??

That being said:

This quotes Christopher Lowe from a June 6, 2003, posting on Casebook:

John Walsh was at one stage suspected of being "no.1" the head of the Invincibles, a splinter group of the larger Fenian movement.
Despite being wanted since 1883 (the French refused to extradite him) he was in Britain in 1888 (for the Balfour plot)

END QUOTE

So, if you're looking for a reason someone might be looking for a Mary (Anything) Kelly. . . .

It's possible she was involved with the Fenian movement . . . and there was a lot going on at that time.

Long shot of course, but nothing really seems to make much sense with her -- perhaps especially her even being in Whitechapel.

I don't have any theories -- am just exploring possibilities.

Curious

[j.r-ahde]

Hello tnb!

The Marie Jeanette really came from Joe Barnett!

What it comes to Kelly, it was the second most common Irish name of the time!

What it comes to conspiracies, one freemason stated in a JtR documentary: "Well, if Jack the Ripper was a freemason, then he did a bloody bad job!" One could say the same about several other conspiracies too...

All the best
Jukka

[tnb]

Lynn,

Excellent points. As far as I can remember I have never seen reference to Kate using 'Conway' by 1888; do you know if I am wrong? Kelly certainly seems to have been her 'alternative' name of choice, but as I said this is hardly surprising.

Although I suppose the 'conspiracy-ists' (conspiracites?) would counter that someone only needs to have heard her use the name 'Kelly' once to get the wrong end of the proverbial stick, as you rightly suggest obviously the more she used a name the more chance someone would get hold of it.

One other thing has always bothered me here - if you've identified someone at or been tipped off by someone at or nearby to Bishopsgate police station that the 'Mary Kelly' you are looking for may have been spotted, why on earth (presumably) follow them all the way to Mitre Square before attacking them? Even today there are plenty of dark corners en route where in the middle of the night it would be just as easy to strike (and much easier than risking losing them on the way)?

With regard to MJK's 'Marie Jeanette' version of her name, am I right in thinking this is the version on her gravestone? I don't know about procedures in 1888 - I may well look into it now I have thought of it! - but I know now that before a death certificate can be issued some form of official documentation bearing the deceased's full name has to be produced from which the name will be copied, and it is from this document that the undertakers, monumental masons etc work from. That needn't necessarily be a birth certificate, so it would still be just about possible to bury someone under an alias, but assuming procedure was roughly similar in 1888 it would suggest that at least some form of ID (perhaps even as informal as a letter) giving the 'Marie Jeanette' version would have had to have been seen by someone, suggesting that she lived by that version at least some of the time.

It may even be that she always called herself Marie Jeanette but that the majority of others anglicised it to Mary Jane, after all a lot of Jewish immigrants underwent a similar 'renaming' process (and no I'm not getting into a Cohen debate don't worry!)

Of course you can have whatever you like on your gravestone, within reason, and it may be that Barnett (as her family appear to have been absent through the whole process) insisted that MJK would have wanted the French form engraved. A final little touch of affected class in defiance to a grisly life and terrible end?

[lynn cates]

2 questions

Hello TNB. 2 ancillary questions might be pertinent here.

1. How often did Kate go by "Eddowes"; "Conway"; "Kelly"?

2. Was the French form given or merely adopted by Kelly.

The best.
LC

[Maggyann]

I suppose it may be possible that the name 'Mary Kelly' was at that time a well known and accepted name for 'loose women'. A name they all used when needed?
We use things like 'Joe Bloggs', 'Billy No-mates' etc and everyone knows what we mean so could 'Mary Kelly' just be a way of saying street walker or whatever in not so many words?

That could include MJK if as is suspected that was not her real name - she just took the common 'nickname' of the time to disguise herself and lose herself in the streets of Whitechapel.

[tnb]

I have stated previously on another thread that the 'Mary Ann Kelly' alias still makes me sit up and think now and then, but I have to temper that with a degree of critical realism. Whether I would like to or not!

As I see it, any 'more than a coincidence' theory hinges on an idea that Kelly (that is, Mary Jane Kelly) was the ultimate target of the killings, and runs up against two substantial walls: why kill Nicholls, Chapman and Stride first (or at least the first 2, and perhaps more) and who could be aggrieved or involved enough with MJK to benefit from her death, and yet seemingly not know what she looked like at all (so as to confuse her with Eddowes)?

You need either an accomplice in Bishopsgate police station or the pawn shop (or somewhere else she used the name Kelly but of which we know nothing) and neither of those locations can be linked to any of the other victims, nor can the surname Kelly (Mary Ann yes, once, but again, hardly uncommon). Any suggestion of a 'net' wide enough to have conspirators placed in such locations seemingly on the offchance necessitates a belief in something approaching Royal Conspiracy size, and I like many others simply cannot buy that.

Of course, if Eddowes did use the alias more regularly, then it does appear a more deliberate choice and may strengthen the case a little.

As Sam has pointed out, the odds on a coincidence are not that long. To illustrate: I live on an estate about a mile out from a large town in Wales, called Penparcau, the population of which is roughly similar to Dorset and Flower and Dean streets combined in 1888 (it is quite a bit bigger mind you!). My wife's maiden name was Williams (as Eddowes' common-law husband's surname was Kelly). If I was looking for an alias it is quite probable I would hit on that name first in the split second I had to decide. If I decided to couple it with a common first name (as Mary was then and still is one of the most common female names) I may choose, for example, John. So I would be recorded in this hypothetical police report as 'John Williams, Penparcau'.

I can tell you now of at least two 'other' genuine people who would also appear as John Williams, Penparcau, and I dread to think how many families with at least one member who would fit '90%' of that. I would not however have picked the name deliberately or necessarily do I have any relationship to these people.

I would love the whole 'Kelly' thing to be more than that, but I am yet to satsfy myself yet alone anyone else with a theory that accounts for how and [I]why[I] in any way that seems more credible than pure coincidence.

Had she used the name 'Florence Golscowbitszska' and the next victim had been 'Florrie Golschowtitz' then perhaps the odds would look a little more favourable... :-)

We also have to bear in mind that even Mary Jane Kelly's use of 'Mary' and 'Kelly' may have been an alias in itself!


By the way am I the only one who cannot see the original post here? Sam's appears to be the first but it is clearly a reply?????

[Sam Flynn]

I realize both Dorset and Flower and Dean had lots of lodgers on them

Well over a thousand.

but when you imagine that she does this twice in her last 24 hours and that both aliases together contain as much as roughly 90% of Mary Jane Kelly's known name and street address...

What if Eddowes was a bloke, and she'd chosen the pseudonym "John Edward Smith", and the next Ripper victim was a "John David Smith"? Would the "90% argument" be particularly impressive then?