Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[DVV]

Hi curious,

she was there, as we can deduce from Barnett's testimony.
By the way, had she gone, McCarthy would have rend her room to someone else.

Amitiés,
David

[Jon Guy]

Hi Curious

Eddowes only gave the name Mary Ann Kelly and address 6 Fashion St as she was walking out of the police station. Until then, no-one knew who she was.
If she was killed in error by someone seeking a Kelly, then the killer is Sgt Byfield or P.C.Hutt.


Eddowes had two pawn tickets in a mustard tin, one for a Emily Birrell of 52 Whites Row, and the other for Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset St. These were not discovered until after her death.

Interestingly, from another angle, Thomas Bowyer admitted at the inquest that he only knew Kelly as Mary Jane, and did not know she was a Kelly.

[curious]

Hi curious,

she was there, as we can deduce from Barnett's testimony.
By the way, had she gone, McCarthy would have rend her room to someone else.

Amitiés,
David

That's true. I was about half asleep, getting ready for bed (fine bedtime reading, isn't this?). Groggily realized later, Barnett was visiting her about every day. Didn't think about her room being rented.

Thanks, David.

curious

[lynn cates]

information please

Hello Jon.

"If she was killed in error by someone seeking a Kelly, then the killer is Sgt Byfield or P.C.Hutt."

Not necessarily. If someone wishes to pursue the "killed in error" angle, one could claim one, the other, or both men as informants for, not active participants in, the murder. Moreover, one could claim the passing of such information to be entirely innocent.

The best.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

But she only gave her name as Kelly at the desk as she walked out at 1.00am.

[curious]

Hello Jon.

"If she was killed in error by someone seeking a Kelly, then the killer is Sgt Byfield or P.C.Hutt."

Not necessarily. If someone wishes to pursue the "killed in error" angle, one could claim one, the other, or both men as informants for, not active participants in, the murder. Moreover, one could claim the passing of such information to be entirely innocent.

The best.
LC

That has been my thinking for awhile now. The police told someone. However, it's my feeling that the murder was so soon after she was released, it almost had to be on purpose.

But the more I look at this the less sure I am. If someone had a name and most of an address, would Mary Jane Kelly not have been killed sooner after the discovery that the wrong woman had been killed?

Why wait so long?

Well, there is the thought that JtR either injured himself or became ill after Eddowes, isn't there?

But if it were a BIG plot (say Finian or anti-Fenian) of some sort, then someone else would have been dispatched to dispatch Kelly as soon as the discovery was made, right?

There's a lot about Kelly that makes me think she was more than we know. . .

oh, well. I won't figure it out before work today.

later all,

and a happy after-Christmas Day to everyone

curious

[curious]

Hi Lynn

But she only gave her name as Kelly at the desk as she walked out at 1.00am.

But we don't know, do we, that her possessions weren't taken from her as she was jailed. Therefore, her pawn tickets could have been seen while she was sobering up.

It's my understanding that when people are arrested, their personal possessions are taken and kept until that person is released.

Were things being done differently in those days?

Anyway, that could explain her getting all the way to Mitre Square before being killed.

Getting word to the proper person might have taken a bit. So, she was not followed the entire way.

curious

[Sox]

I would like to know something. Why did so many of these women adopt a so called alias, and do we place too much importance upon this?

When these women are arrested, or if they are being sought by a landlord for unpaid rent, fair enough, that could be a reason for adopting an alias. Police cannot check names against addresses, because most of them do not even have a permanent home, so it becomes a simple matter of avoiding prison for repeat offending.

But we often overlook something important I think, things like 'Polly' 'Dark Annie' & 'Ginger'....names which immediately identify our ladies, names by which they are obviously known locally, even to Police.

I think this thread raised one important issue, because when you look at Catherine Eddowes it becomes obvious why we have not been able to find the 'real' Mary Jane Kelly for all these years. If (and we have little reason to doubt this) Kelly had been a working girl for so long, then it follows that she may well have been arrested a number of times. Judging by Eddowes's case it also follows that in all probability Mary Jane Kelly & Marie Jeanette Kelly were aliases.

Mary & Kelly were both very common names, not really surprising that if you want to confuse, then you give your name as Kelly. So does Eddowes give her name as Mary Ann Kelly because she knows that a friend of hers is already using Mary Jane Kelly? Therein lies a very distinct possibility I think.

[lynn cates]

exploration

Hello Jon.

"But she only gave her name as Kelly at the desk as she walked out at 1.00am."

But is that not enough time, according to the theory? My point is that, if someone wished to killed a party named Kelly, then a chance meeting with Hutt after Kate leaves, and a chance remark about a name COULD do the trick.

I am not necessarily promulgating a theory here. I am merely exploring through a door which some seem compelled prematurely to shut.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

location, location, location

Hello Curious.

"But the more I look at this the less sure I am."

You are a wise person. I think this applies to ALL the WC murders, and ALL the theories.

"If someone had a name and most of an address, would Mary Jane Kelly not have been killed sooner after the discovery that the wrong woman had been killed?"

Possibly. Especially if she were easy to locate.

"Why wait so long?"

Perhaps she were NOT so easy to locate?

The best.
LC

[Jon Guy]

But we don't know, do we, that her possessions weren't taken from her as she was jailed. Therefore, her pawn tickets could have been seen while she was sobering up.

Hi Curious

The inquest reports have no mention of the police searching her, and more importantly, of returning her belongings on her release.

The Police did not know her name upon her release, so they could not of seen the pawn tickets.

[lynn cates]

alias

Hello Sox.

"Why did so many of these women adopt a so called alias[?]"

Your answer to this approximates the one I would have offered.

Was MJK the alias of C5? Possibly. But certainly it deserves further exploration; the same applies, I think, to George Hutchinson.

The best.
LC

[Jon Guy]

But is that not enough time, according to the theory? My point is that, if someone wished to killed a party named Kelly, then a chance meeting with Hutt after Kate leaves, and a chance remark about a name COULD do the trick.

I`m sorry Lynn, but if she identified herself as a Kelly as she was walking out the door it doesn`t leave much time left for Hutt to have a chance meeting with the killer. Unless Jack was been processed in the office at the same time of her release.

I am not necessarily promulgating a theory here. I am merely exploring through a door which some seem compelled prematurely to shut.

Personally, I feel that facts that we do have to hand, allow us to push this door firmly shut.

[Jon Guy]

So does Eddowes give her name as Mary Ann Kelly because she knows that a friend of hers is already using Mary Jane Kelly? Therein lies a very distinct possibility I think.

Hi Sox

Isn`t the most likely explanation for Eddowes using the name Mary Ann Kelly, as Wolf mentions in his post, John Kelly`s deceased, previous partner was called Mary Ann Kelly.

[Sox]

Hello Sox.

"Why did so many of these women adopt a so called alias[?]"

Your answer to this approximates the one I would have offered.

Was MJK the alias of C5? Possibly. But certainly it deserves further exploration; the same applies, I think, to George Hutchinson.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

In terms of a killer looking for these women by name then I think that we can pretty much discount any notion that he 'knew' his victims....if he did indeed know them then he would surely have been asking around for 'Polly' or 'Long Liz' or a 'Dark Annie'....easily found no? Locals would have been more likely to know these women by their nic-names rather than their 'real' names. Close friends may well have known their real names, but then if you accept that Barnett was as close a friend of Kelly as he claimed to be, then it seems clear that she lied to him....or he lied to everyone else, and he was little more than her pimp.

If you are an East Ender looking for this specific Mary Kelly then you would be asking for 'Ginger' 'Fair Emma' or Black Mary' I think, asking around for Mary Kelly is going to lead you to..... someone like Kate Eddowes maybe?

I have always had a feeling that Kelly & Eddowes knew each other, no proof, just a feeling. I am not a fan of coincidence at all, even taking into account that Mary & Kelly were common names at the time, the chances of the last two victims of the Whitechapel killer using the same alias are astronomical.