Maybe "Jeanette" was her last name and "Kelly" was an alias.
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Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"
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Originally posted by tnb View PostThis 'nothing' does concern me a little.
If Kate was used to using aliases (as she clearly was) why say 'nothing' rather than pull one of them 'out of the hat'? She had, as perry said, used 2 similar ones within the last 24 hours, so why different this time?
Unless she was just being stroppy - or so drunk she couldn't even remember her own lies!
Best regards
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Hi,
'I have come back to claim the reward money, i know who the whitechapel murderer is' says Eddowes.
Jane kelly 6, Dorset street[ not 26] she informs the pawnbroker,
Mary Ann kelly, of flower and dean street she tells the desk sergeant.
It is a big coincedence that out of the five words used, three of them add up to the next victims name.
I appreciate that she was living with a man called kelly, but so was Mary, according to McCarthy ' She came to live with a man called kelly, and as she posed as his wife, became known as Mary Jane Kelly'.
Of course this was Barnett , but originally was thought to have been Kelly.
Is it not possible that someone was searching for a Mary , who lived with a man called kelly.?
But for that scenerio to be plausible, the last two killings would not be related . to the others.
A great many of us dismiss Stride as a victim of the Ripper, so is it not possible that the person who claimed the lifes of Nichols, and Chapman, killed no more.
Remember the letter of the 24th sptember, which starts ' I do wish to give myself up, I am in misery with nightmare'
Then in the Letter which incidently was sent to Sir Charles Warren, one day before the infamous 'Dear Boss' states the following ' I have found the woman that I Wanted that was Chapman'.
If he had found the woman that he was looking for, mayby he killed no more, just like someone who was looking for the woman kelly.
Just rambling on , but bits to ponder over.
RegardsRichard.
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Originally posted by richardnunweek View PostHi,
'I have come back to claim the reward money, i know who the whitechapel murderer is' says Eddowes.
Jane kelly 6, Dorset street[ not 26] she informs the pawnbroker,
Mary Ann kelly, of flower and dean street she tells the desk sergeant.
It is a big coincedence that out of the five words used, three of them add up to the next victims name.
I appreciate that she was living with a man called kelly, but so was Mary, according to McCarthy ' She came to live with a man called kelly, and as she posed as his wife, became known as Mary Jane Kelly'.
Of course this was Barnett , but originally was thought to have been Kelly.
Is it not possible that someone was searching for a Mary , who lived with a man called kelly.?
But for that scenerio to be plausible, the last two killings would not be related . to the others.
A great many of us dismiss Stride as a victim of the Ripper, so is it not possible that the person who claimed the lifes of Nichols, and Chapman, killed no more.
Remember the letter of the 24th sptember, which starts ' I do wish to give myself up, I am in misery with nightmare'
Then in the Letter which incidently was sent to Sir Charles Warren, one day before the infamous 'Dear Boss' states the following ' I have found the woman that I Wanted that was Chapman'.
If he had found the woman that he was looking for, mayby he killed no more, just like someone who was looking for the woman kelly.
Just rambling on , but bits to ponder over.
RegardsRichard.
I think some of your thoughts above are logical trains of thought and quite reasonable Richard.
Best regards mate
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Catherine Eddowes, like many women living in the East End, used the name Kelly because that was the name of her then “husband,” John Kelly (just as she used the name Conway when living with Thomas Conway).
Where did the name Mary Ann come from? Mark King, writing in Ripperana #12 (April, 1995), has shown that John Kelly’s “wife,” the one before Eddowes, was named Mary Ann Kelly and that Eddowes would have known her since she died at 55 Flower and Dean Street, the same address Eddowes and Kelly lived, on 15 May, 1888.
Wolf.
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Originally posted by Wolf Vanderlinden View PostCatherine Eddowes, like many women living in the East End, used the name Kelly because that was the name of her then “husband,” John Kelly (just as she used the name Conway when living with Thomas Conway).
Where did the name Mary Ann come from? Mark King, writing in Ripperana #12 (April, 1995), has shown that John Kelly’s “wife,” the one before Eddowes, was named Mary Ann Kelly and that Eddowes would have known her since she died at 55 Flower and Dean Street, the same address Eddowes and Kelly lived, on 15 May, 1888.
Wolf.
And where do we then get Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street for the boots?
There is ample room for suggestion that Kate used 2 versions of a name of someone she knew and at least one of those included the street the woman lived on with just the second digit of her address.
My personal belief is that perhaps Crossinghams is a place of local information and where local characters might learn of each other. If not there, at one of the Pubs on Dorset.
Cheers Wolf
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Originally posted by Jon Guy View PostHello
The first victim was called Mary Ann Nichols too.
Cheers Jon
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Originally posted by perrymason View Post...and we also know Mary Ann Cox of Dorset Street....your point is well made. Finding names of known people within the names Kate gives isnt that difficult,...explaining why 2 aliases that she used in the last 24 hours of her life when combined are essentially the name and address of the very next Ripper victim, is more difficult.
Cheers Jon
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Most Common 19th C. Female Names
Hi, folks.
As anyone who does a bit of family genealogy quickly discovers, the most popular female name in Britain, Ireland, and America during the late 19th & early 20th C. was 'Mary'. (The most popular male name was 'John'.)
I decided to look back a little further in time and found this handy chart, which lists the most popular female given names in Britain over the centuries.
As you can see, throughout the 19th C. the most common female name was Mary.
(In the 18th C. it was the second-most-popular, being beat out by 'Elizabeth'.)
The two most popular middle names for someone named Mary are 'Ann' and 'Jane'.
So if a 19th C. woman wanted an alias for any reason, any combination of those common names would be a convenient choice.
Best regards, Archaic
PS: The giving of an alias to a pawn-broker makes me wonder if perhaps stolen goods were being pawned?
But then again, some people are just wary of giving their real names for anything even remotely "official".Last edited by Archaic; 12-02-2009, 11:00 PM.
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Originally posted by lynn cates View Post"everyone seems to be assuming that MJK's 'real' name was Mary Jane and that the Marie Jeanette was given to her later, either by Barnett or while she was in France or whatever. Do we know this is definitely the right way round?"
Perhaps someone does, but, regrettably, I do not. Indeed, for aught I know, it could be as you suppose. I daresay Gareth may know the answer. It would be interesting to ascertain the truth in this case.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by perrymason View Post...and we also know Mary Ann Cox of Dorset Street....your point is well made. Finding names of known people within the names Kate gives isnt that difficult,...explaining why 2 aliases that she used in the last 24 hours of her life when combined are essentially the name and address of the very next Ripper victim, is more difficult.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Archaic View PostI decided to look back a little further in time and found this handy chart, which lists the most popular female given names in Britain over the centuries.
As you can see, throughout the 19th C. the most common female name was Mary.
(In the 18th C. it was the second-most-popular, being beat out by 'Elizabeth'.)
The two most popular middle names for someone named Mary are 'Ann' and 'Jane'.
Thanks for the chart, Arch. Most useful.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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I just found out a slang meaning for "Mary Jane" that really surprised me: in the 1960's Marijuana was called "Mary Jane".
Seems that the word 'Marijuana' is simply the Spanish rendition of 'Mary Jane'...Wow, I had no idea.
- Why didn't one of you 60's hipsters ever tell me?
Best regards, Archaic
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