Kate's choice of "Mary Ann Kelly"

[Sam Flynn]

Seems that the word 'Marijuana' is simply the Spanish rendition of 'Mary Jane'..

According to Wikipedia:

"The English marijuana comes from the Mexican Spanish marihuana or mariguana, (1918), which might have in turn derived from the Nahuatl mallihuan, meaning 'prisoner. Traditional association with the personal name María Juana ("Mary Jane") is probably a folk etymology."

[perrymason]

Forgive me for being inflexible on this point Sam and others, but if you believe that it sheer coincidence that within the last 24 hours of her life the 4th Canonical victim uses aliases that involve the 5th Canonical victims First, Middle and Last names and part of the number and the street she resided on,.......... then you are entitled to that opinion.

Im not going to say you must be incorrect, because I dont know that, but I can say that it appears to me that Kate Eddowes more likely used variations of a name and address of someone she probably knew and she didnt just pull them out of her bonnet that day. Kate has Irish ties through TC, Mary has as well.

This could be as simple as her knowing of Mary you realize,...Im not suggesting anything sinister on top of that.....for the moment. The Dorset Street connection to some and perhaps all of the victims is what drives this possibility, particularly I think Crossinghams....right across the street from Mary.

When you stop looking at each slice of data as being independent from all other data Gareth we will have fewer of these disputes. There is a bigger picture, which is comprised of all the data, and that includes similarly curious details.

Kates last 24 hours are a mystery...the aliases are a very curious coincidence, her death was thought at least by one medical authority to perhaps be by someone other than Jack, she is killed within 40 minute of being released from jail, at which time she headed the opposite direction to where she has lived in the East End before she went hopping. She seems to know nothing of Johns whereabouts and seems by her left turn to not be looking for him at that time. Despite the fact that John says they were together almost every night and in bed at reasonable times. And he doesnt even come looking for Kate Sunday...or Monday, despite the real possibility that he knew she was in a city jail, and as such would likely be released the same night.

We have a story that she may have told someone she intended to get the Ripper reward but she wasnt afraid of doing so.

We have the curious detail about Johns boot story and the date on the pawn ticket.

We have Kate being hammered just after dinner time when its unlikely she would have been soliciting as yet that evening and we have reason to believe she had no money.

All those little things become one bigger story, and that big story is only as viable as the components are. The big story is that Kate was killed by someone she didnt know called Jack just after she went to Mitre Square likely to seek some clients. But the foundations the story is built on including the particular circumstances do not, to me, provide a impenetrable or imperical truth.

All the best G

[Chava]

I just found out a slang meaning for "Mary Jane" that really surprised me: in the 1960's Marijuana was called "Mary Jane".

Seems that the word 'Marijuana' is simply the Spanish rendition of 'Mary Jane'...Wow, I had no idea.

- Why didn't one of you 60's hipsters ever tell me?

Best regards, Archaic

I'm pretty sure 'Mary Jane' came after 'marijuana'. And it's not what we called it in the 60s. Back then we called it 'grass'. I think 'Mary Jane' was much earlier, maybe even the 30s and 40s, but it's now having a bit of a renaissance.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Michael.

Catherine Eddowes, like many women living in the East End, used the name Kelly because that was the name of her then “husband,” John Kelly (just as she used the name Conway when living with Thomas Conway).

The above in bold is what I question Wolf.....where do we have evidence that Kate also called herself Kelly as she did with Conway...

Evidence that Catherine Eddowes called herself Kelly can be found all over the news reports of the day:

The body that was found in Mitre-square has been positively identified as that of a woman named Kelly…
The Star, 3 October, 1888.

All doubt as to the identification of the victim of the Mitre-square murder has now been removed. Her real name is Catherine Edowes (sic), but she was best known as Catharine Kelly.
The Daily Telegraph, 4 October, 1888.

On Thursday the inquest on Catherine Eddowes, alias Kelly…
The City Press, 6 October, 1888.

The adjourned inquest on the body of Catherine Eddowes, alias Kelly…
The St. James Gazette, 12 October, 1888.

It’s obvious that Eddowes was known as Kelly and that she took the name from John Kelly her common law “husband” of some seven years. Nothing more needs to be read into that. As I also pointed out Eddowes must have known Kelly’s ex-wife Mary Anne Kelly – the name she gave at Bishopsgate Police Station. I feel that this is a much more logical explanation for the use of the name than that offered by you, I’m afraid.

And where do we then get Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street for the boots?

I have a question for you Michael. Yes, some newspapers stated that the pawn ticket was made out to the name “Jane Kelly” (The Pall Mall Gazette, 1 October, 1888, and The Daily News, 3 October, 1888, are examples). However, other newspapers stated that the pawn ticket was made out to the name “Anne Kelly” (The Star, 1 October, 1888, and the Times, 2 October, 1888, for example). Since no official report still exists on the actual name listed on the ticket, and Eddowes definitely used the name Mary Anne Kelly that same day, how does anyone know that the name on the ticket wasn’t Anne Kelly?

Wolf.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael.



Evidence that Catherine Eddowes called herself Kelly can be found all over the news reports of the day:

The body that was found in Mitre-square has been positively identified as that of a woman named Kelly…
The Star, 3 October, 1888.

All doubt as to the identification of the victim of the Mitre-square murder has now been removed. Her real name is Catherine Edowes (sic), but she was best known as Catharine Kelly.
The Daily Telegraph, 4 October, 1888.

On Thursday the inquest on Catherine Eddowes, alias Kelly…
The City Press, 6 October, 1888.

The adjourned inquest on the body of Catherine Eddowes, alias Kelly…
The St. James Gazette, 12 October, 1888.

It’s obvious that Eddowes was known as Kelly and that she took the name from John Kelly her common law “husband” of some seven years. Nothing more needs to be read into that. As I also pointed out Eddowes must have known Kelly’s ex-wife Mary Anne Kelly – the name she gave at Bishopsgate Police Station. I feel that this is a much more logical explanation for the use of the name than that offered by you, I’m afraid.



I have a question for you Michael. Yes, some newspapers stated that the pawn ticket was made out to the name “Jane Kelly” (The Pall Mall Gazette, 1 October, 1888, and The Daily News, 3 October, 1888, are examples). However, other newspapers stated that the pawn ticket was made out to the name “Anne Kelly” (The Star, 1 October, 1888, and the Times, 2 October, 1888, for example). Since no official report still exists on the actual name listed on the ticket, and Eddowes definitely used the name Mary Anne Kelly that same day, how does anyone know that the name on the ticket wasn’t Anne Kelly?

Wolf.

Fair points all Wolf, and I bow to the mention of her surname as Kelly.....I would assume that the quote that she was known as Catherine Kelly for one must have originated from some source to get into the press, however, I recall that Barnett was mentioned as Mr Kelly in one report as well, so Im not sure how accurate the reports are. Rather than listing a couple under 2 surnames it seems some people, other than the couple in question, referred to her as being a "Kelly".

In the case of the Jane vs Ann bit......I agree, its not clear that Ann or Jane was used by the fact we have contrary reports, but it is clear that 6 Dorset was the address given. In which case the relationship with Mary Ann Kelly, Johns ex, doesnt come into play.

We can justify these as coincidence quite easily, I realize that, but there are a few factors regarding Kate in addition to these names that show us we do not know the whole picture about Kate, her afternoon, or her actual relationship with John at that time.

But we do have stories about her that are quite interesting when considering her role as an alledged Ripper victim.

My best regards Wolf

[KatBradshaw]

If Eddowes used the name Mary Ann why do people assume the connection with MJK and not Nichols? Kelly was Eddowes common law husband so it makes sense she used his name. Mary Ann crops up a LOT in this case. I think it is just coincidence!

[Sam Flynn]

If Eddowes used the name Mary Ann why do people assume the connection with MJK and not Nichols?

Because some people can't help thinking that there's "something more" to the Whitechapel Murders than their just being a squalid series of crimes, which - let's face it - nearly all serial killer cases turn out to be.

[perrymason]

If Eddowes used the name Mary Ann why do people assume the connection with MJK and not Nichols? Kelly was Eddowes common law husband so it makes sense she used his name. Mary Ann crops up a LOT in this case. I think it is just coincidence!

Because its MARY ANN KELLY, and just that morning,... by the pawn slip date....she was JANE KELLY of 6 Dorset Street.

She is 2 different Kelly's within 24 hours, neither of them Catharine or Kate, and in one she is residing on Dorset street with the number 6 in it.

Considering the full known name and address of the very next victim supposedly by the same killer is an amalgam of the names and address she gives in her last 24 hours.....yeah, its quite a co-inkydink.

Best regards and Happy Holidays Kate.

[Sam Flynn]

She is 2 different Kelly's within 24 hours, neither of them Catharine or Kate, and in one she is residing on Dorset street with the number 6 in it.

That'd be together with numbers 6, 16 and 36 Dorset Street (there wasn't a 46), and assuming that we can overlook the technicality that Kelly's address was "13 Miller's Court".

[perrymason]

That'd be together with numbers 6, 16 and 36 Dorset Street (there wasn't a 46), and assuming that we can overlook the technicality that Kelly's address was "13 Miller's Court".

Which was a courtyard off Dorset and that belonged to the owner of 26 and 27 Dorset. Lots of people refer to Mary as being off Dorset, because not everyone would be familiar with residences that you cannot see from the street...ones that you have to get to via a tunnel in effect.

Its not that she uses Marys name or address verbatim....we wouldnt need to argue about it in that situation at all....its that she is the 4th alleged victim of Jack the Ripper that used the entire name and virtually the entire address of the 5th alleged victim in her last 24 hours on earth as aliases.

Im fairly sure Kate wasnt a newbie to pawn shops....perhaps there is some historical evidence somewhere that might show this to be unusual even for Kate "Kelly".

Cheers Sam....all the best

[Sam Flynn]

Which was a courtyard off Dorset and that belonged to the owner of 26 and 27 Dorset.

Indeed, Mike, but Miller's Court had its own sign above the archway after all, and appears on the maps as a separate entity. Note that the residents of the court (what little of them we know) gave their addresses as "Miller's Court" when testifying and/or speaking to the press - they might have mentioned "Dorset Street" as well, but "Such-and-such Room, Miller's Court" is where they said they lived.

Let's loosen that logic muscle a bit, though, and equate "Miller's Court" directly with "Dorset Street". Now, there were four properties in Dorset Street (proper) ending in the number 6, as I indicated above. So, if Eddowes happened to pick a Dorset Street property ending in "6", she had a 1 in 4 chance of landing on Miller's Court... and yet she blew it, even with those small odds.

No - I've no doubt that, when Catherine Eddowes mentioned "6, Dorset Street", she intended to refer to "6, Dorset Street" and nothing else, whether she made it up or not. Even if she didn't make it up, then she emphatically wasn't referring to "26, Dorset Street", was she - so how on earth can we read any significance into that?

[perrymason]

Indeed, Mike, but Miller's Court had its own sign above the archway after all, and appears on the maps as a separate entity. Note that the residents of the court (what little of them we know) gave their addresses as "Miller's Court" when testifying and/or speaking to the press - they might have mentioned "Dorset Street" as well, but "Such-and-such Room, Miller's Court" is where they said they lived.

Let's loosen that logic muscle a bit, though, and equate "Miller's Court" directly with "Dorset Street". Now, there were four properties in Dorset Street (proper) ending in the number 6, as I indicated above. So, if Eddowes happened to pick a Dorset Street property ending in "6", she had a 1 in 4 chance of landing on Miller's Court... and yet she blew it, even with those small odds.

No - I've no doubt that, when Catherine Eddowes mentioned "6, Dorset Street", she intended to refer to "6, Dorset Street" and nothing else, whether she made it up or not. Even if she didn't make it up, then she emphatically wasn't referring to "26, Dorset Street", was she - so how on earth can we read any significance into that?

My thinking is Sam that if Kate was familiar with Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset Street at all, and was inclined to provide false names for legal documents like pawn tickets and police booking records, she might make up a variation of her friends name so that it could not actually come back and haunt Mary Jane herself. Changing a few minor bits prevents that from happening....because I do know they checked 6 Dorset Street.

I think its reasonable to assume that she might use combinations of those kind of assiciates names and addresses as an alias....what I dont have is any proof that they knew each other. Although I know Kate had a tattoo of and ex-Irish officer on her arm and perhaps Mary had Irish in her background. And we are talking about inside a single square mile....for all the months and years they both lived near that area. There was lots of pubs and streets, but common friends might have facilitated some knowledge....she meets Mary where some Irish folks hang out, she remarks that her man has the same surname....voila.

No major deal perhaps....its just damn odd that she uses an alias twice during her last day, and within both aliases is almost the identical name and address of the very next victim of the killer thought to have killed her 5 weeks later. In close proximity, relatively speaking.

It wouldnt be so potentially relevant if Kate was killed in Liverpool.

My best regards Gareth

[perrymason]

Hey Sam......youre the statistician.....what are the odds that a woman living in that area with no knowledge of our Mary would randomly select combination's of her name and address in 24 hours that when pieced together almost match exactly Mary's full known name and address. Now what are the odds the women would be consecutive murder victims assumed killed by 1 man.

I would imagine to start you would need to know exactly how many women lived in the area to calculate, but it has to be at least several 10's of thousands to 1 I would imagine just to calculate the odds without even adding the consecutive victims angle.

My best again Sam

[curious]

No - I've no doubt that, when Catherine Eddowes mentioned "6, Dorset Street", she intended to refer to "6, Dorset Street" and nothing else, whether she made it up or not. Even if she didn't make it up, then she emphatically wasn't referring to "26, Dorset Street", was she - so how on earth can we read any significance into that?

It seems to me you've got this by the wrong end.

whether Eddowes knew Mary Jane Kelly or not seems of little importance.

What strikes me as important is that she used a name that was so similar to the next victim -- as though SOMEONE mistook her for Mary Jane Kelly. That the hit was out on Mary Jane Kelly.

If someone was looking for a Mary Kelly or a Jane Kelly with a possible address on Dorset. . . .

Bingo, Catherine Eddowes signed her own death warrant. She had the pawn ticket in her possession when checked into the jail and she gave her name. So, regardless of why SHE was using Mary Ann or Jane Kelly, if someone nasty was looking for Mary Jane Kelly, he likely thought he had found her.

curious

[curious]

It seems to me you've got this by the wrong end.

whether Eddowes knew Mary Jane Kelly or not seems of little importance.

What strikes me as important is that she used a name that was so similar to the next victim -- as though SOMEONE mistook her for Mary Jane Kelly. That the hit was out on Mary Jane Kelly.

If someone was looking for a Mary Kelly or a Jane Kelly with a possible address on Dorset. . . .

Bingo, Catherine Eddowes signed her own death warrant. She had the pawn ticket in her possession when checked into the jail and she gave her name. So, regardless of why SHE was using Mary Ann or Jane Kelly, if someone nasty was looking for Mary Jane Kelly, he likely thought he had found her.

curious

However, since it doesn't make much sense that Kelly's murder was so far distant in time, I"m wondering. . .

Is there any suggestion that Kelly was out of town or gone during any of the time between Eddowes murder and her own?

Or was she always available in the area?

curious