The Bloody Piece of Apron (Recovered)

[Sam Flynn]

I dont know where this blood letting has come from but it should be disregarded forthwith in my opinion.

Stick to the basics and the facts

Richard Zednik, an ice-hockey player, lost nearly five pints of blood after one of his carotid arteries was partially severed by a skate in a freak accident earlier this year. Granted, that was total amount of blood lost over a period of time much longer than that "enjoyed" by the Ripper in Mitre Square. However, unlike Zednik, the fact remains that Eddowes had had one carotid as well as the jugular veins on one side of her throat severed completely, and corresponding vessels partly severed on the other. The blood loss would have been swift and significant under such circumstances.

[rainydaygirl]

I saw that hockey game on television, and you make a good point.

Just how long would it take to slit a throat, though? I mean, Jack would've had to have been quick in his work, so as not to get caught...

[Sam Flynn]

Just how long would it take to slit a throat, though? I mean, Jack would've had to have been quick in his work, so as not to get caught...

Hi RDG,

A couple of seconds to slit the throat, the removal of abdominal organs perhaps taking place two or three minutes later, perhaps, betwen which times the blood lost from the deeply cut throat would have been significant.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam has set himself up here as the resident medical expert he admits he has had no medical training.

I've not set myself up as a medical expert, Trev, however it's probably fair to say that I've forgotten more about the subject than most laymen would care to know. I have an abiding interest in medicine, and have at least attained some level of academic achievement in biology (to "A" Level), a subject in which I more often than not scored in excess of 90% in tests and examinations.

[perrymason]

G'day all,

Sam, thanks for addressing the post, and I didnt mean to accuse you of an opinion like I stated it, or Ben, just that as I illustrated with the back of Kates clothing being soaked in blood from lying in it while dying or dead. I believe that the "shite" would be unpleasant for the killer.....though I dont know why, the guy must get elbow deep in blood and fat and organs and tendons...but anyway, I do agree he would either wipe his hands on Kate herself, which apparently he didnt do, or he would use a hanky or perhaps an apron piece.

But I like Ben believe that the "soaked in one corner", refelects cartage. Both you and Trevor have suggested the blood staining by rolling the kidney and partial uterus into it, well, that doesnt have to be the method and in fact probably wasnt. If the organs are placed in the open hanky, and the hanky is gathered together at the top like a hobo over the shoulder version of knapsack, tied on a stick with them.....you have a package that could be opened by placing it on a table, and unfastening the knot,...you fold all sides down, voila. But, you say, the heavier staining was in one corner.....not an issue really, it didnt say "on the corner", it said "in", which means a heavier stain could easily be an inch or two in from the corner, and it was stained because the killer didnt tie all sides up evenly...and that side took the weight of the organs.

Once they are out and safe, he finishes with wiping hands on the cloth and dropping it in an alley...., and based on the volume of mess in totality on the hanky, I would guess he has already wiped his hands once before he uses that apron piece....there is not enough gunk represented on it to adequately address what he must have had on his hands.

Best regards all.

[Howard Brown]

Spotcheck !

How are the references to mortuary attendants nicking organs coming along,gang? Anyone find ONE yet?

[Sam Flynn]

Both you and Trevor have suggested the blood staining by rolling the kidney and partial uterus into it

I don't as such, Mike - I tend to accept the evidence of a "bloody hand or knife" being wiped into the body of the apron, producing a smear of blood and fæcal matter, and a wet corner (singular) that was almost certainly produced by some mechanism other than wrapping the organs.

If the organs are placed in the open hanky, and the hanky is gathered together at the top...

...the organs, which would then lie in the bottom of the bundle, would end up leaking whatever residual blood they contained into the middle of the cloth and dampening it slightly, leaving the neck formed by the "corners" of the apron relatively unscathed. A "hobo's bundle" doesn't explain the single wet corner, anymore than an "apple-turnover" style of wrap would.

[perrymason]

I wouldnt explore that kind of avenue myself Howard, I just popped back in to say hello to you.

Nice to see you Mr Brown,....cheers.

[perrymason]

I don't as such, Mike - I tend to accept the evidence of a "bloody hand or knife" being wiped into the body of the apron, producing a smear of blood and fæcal matter, and a wet corner (singular) that was almost certainly produced by some mechanism other than wrapping the organs....the organs, which would then lie in the bottom of the bundle, would end up leaking whatever residual blood they contained into the middle of the cloth and dampening it slightly, leaving the neck formed by the "corners" of the apron relatively unscathed. A "hobo's bundle" doesn't explain the single wet corner, anymore than an "apple-turnover" style of wrap would.

Sam my friend, you ignored where I mentioned that the corners wouldnt be equal in length at the top, because he is not trying to centre the organs in the cloth, just carry them. There is no way he could have placed in the the exact middle and equally folded in the corners....in the dark, after killing, while sweating. A hasty plop on the apron piece, a little more towards one corner, he pulls all 4 corners up, and the shorter corner end becomes the weight bearing side when the organs shift being knotted inside.

I think that is a very possible solution here, partly for the manner in which he could retrieve them....nice and neat. I would think this man being covered with blood is more of a recreational problem, rather than a occupational one, and he might like his coat pockets, and hands, to be clean.

Best regards Sam.

[Trevor Marriott]

The uterus that was removed came from a female who was having a hysterectomy. so it was fresh. The uterus stained the cloth sigificantly which as i said previous is not consitent with the report of the description of the apron piece when found. Then if we had been able to add also a fresh kidney the staining would have been even greater

The kidney used came from a deceased who had been dead for 48 hours. this also made significant staining even on its own wrapped in a cloth

Even taking into account someones suggestion that the organs were placed in a corner of the apron piece there would have still been heavy bloodstaining. take a look at the photos i posted last night see the effects of just wiping bloodstained hands on a cloth. Imagine how more blood stained it would have been with fresh organs wrapped in it.

FAO Sam
i think you need to look at the photos showing the cloth after having a uterus wrapped in it

[Sam Flynn]

The kidney used came from a deceased who had been dead for 48 hours. this also made significant staining even on its own wrapped in a cloth

But had she first suffered the ignominy of having been "bled" from the throat whilst still alive, Trevor? In experimenting, one must take care to recreate the conditions as faithfully as possible - and that extends to not using a shiny white cloth, by the way.

(That aside, I should point out that I tend not to favour the view that the apron piece was used to wrap the organs - to that extent, at least, we are in agreement.)

[Ben]

I'd have to agree with you here, Mike.

I don't think I'll ever accept that the killer spurned the easy availability of a free organ transporter in favour of dumping them directly into his pockets, and would agree that the condition of the organ is by no means inconsistent with organ-transportation.

Cheers,
Ben

[Trevor Marriott]

Sam
Good point next time i will ask the donor is she minds us cutting her throat first !!!!!!!
The throat cutting would not drain the blood from the organs.nor would it stop it flowing into the abdomen from the abdominal mutilations.

i think the photos posted last night rule out handwiping to

[Sam Flynn]

The throat cutting would not drain the blood from the organs.nor would it stop it flowing into the abdomen from the abdominal mutilations.

I'm not disputing that to any great extent - of course there is residual blood in the organs and tissues, just not as much as one might think.

i think the photos posted last night rule out handwiping to

I think the contemporary opinion of Dr Brown that the apron was smeared with blood and fæcal matter, as if a hand or knife had been wiped on it, rather emphatically rules it in.

[Howard Brown]

Hello Mike...

Excuse me,Trevor:

Exactly how much blood does a normal uterus contain upon its extrication from a woman? If its as little as I think, then where does all this blood come from? The kidney,correct ? How long did you leave the kidney sitting in or on this erzatz apron piece? Kidneys leak through the renal artery and will contain a modicum of blood on their surfaces...but they ain't gonna leak all over God's creation if they are wrapped in a bundle and placed in a pocket.

The staining in the photos which you placed may well have been what the contemporaries of the Eddowes apron piece saw, but simply considered the volume in different terms.

You don't need to be a medical expert to demonstrate that each and every test one takes might well produce different results with the same organs and the same size of apron piece. I've already mentioned the two lbs. of steak I exspermimented with...did I say that right?....and my test demonstrated minimal staining three years ago.