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The Bloody Piece of Apron (Recovered)

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    The medical evidence indicates some internal organs were punctured by the point of a knife, yes, as the killer removed organs he accidentally cut the liver with the point of his knife. There is no evidence to support the idea the killer stabbed her body through her clothing.

    There is a difference between cutting/slicing, and puncturing, and you dont know he accidentally cut the liver, the doctors states the liver was stabbed through, thats not cutting is it?


    If you want to know what Dr Brown told the inquest, I'll quote from the inquest papers.
    After describing the initial incision at the sternum, he talks about the liver...

    "Behind this the liver was stabbed as if by the point of a sharp instrument...."

    So, not stabbed through as you seem to think.


    "Below this was another incision into the liver of about 2 1/2 inches, and below this the left lobe of the liver was slit through by a vertical cut"

    This is the damage done to the liver by the slice downwards opening up her abdomen.


    Her skirts have slices, cuts near the waist bad, once again, produced by him cutting into her abdomen through the skirts.

    But he would not have needed to cut through her skirts if he had lifted them up because the abdomen and the lower part would have already been exposed


    She wore skirts, not dresses. Skirts fit at the waist, if you turn her skirt up her chest is still covered - why do you struggle to grasp this?


    If a person is lying flat on the ground facing up, and you stab that person through their clothing and draw the knife down or across, you will make a cut in that clothing the length of whatever distance you draw the knife, and if she had been wearing an apron then that would also have had the same cuts to it

    “Chintz Skirt” – three flounces, brown button on waistband, jagged cut six inches long from waistband, left side of front, edges slightly bloodstained, also blood on bottom, front and back of skirt “Brown Linsey Dress Bodice – black velvet collar, brown metal buttons down front, blood inside and outside of back of neck of shoulders, clean cut bottom of left side, five inches long from right to left.

    “Grey Stuff Petticoat – white waistband cut one and a half inches long, thereon in front edges blood stained, blood stains at front and bottom of petticoat.

    “Very Old Green Alpaca Skirt – jagged cut ten and a half inches long, through waistband downwards, blood stained inside front undercut.

    “Very Old Ragged Blue Skirt – red flounce, light twill lining, jagged cut ten and a half inches long, through waistband downwards, blood stained inside, outside back and front.

    There are 2 different sets of cuts which match up.
    Yes, these are the skirts which were cut through after they were turned upside down.

    There was a stab wound to the groin, the pic clearly show that the knife was drawn down after she was stabbed so that goes a long way to suggest that sh was stabbed thorugh her clothing, there would have been no need for the killer to inflict a wound to that part of the body after pulling the clothes up and targetting the abdomen.[/B]

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    The stab to her groin was 1", there were no 1" holes in any of her clothing noted by Collard or Dr. Brown.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

    "Very Old Green Alpaca Skirt – jagged cut ten and a half inches long, through waistband downwards... “Very Old Ragged Blue Skirt – red flounce, light twill lining, jagged cut ten and a half inches long, through waistband downwards"

    A longitudinal cut starting at the xiphoid process of the breastbone, such as that which opened Eddowes' abdomen, is unlikely to have been made by cutting from the waist downwards. Indeed, from the waist to the lowest extent of Eddowes' abdominal wound (i.e. the pubis) is rather less than ten and a half inches, so it's tricky to see how the cuts to the clothing could even have been made as a continuation of a wound starting higher up the body.
    I think we must imagine her skirts turned up from the waist, they were all upside down.
    So an incision into the breast would cut through the skirt above the waist band. The knife was dragged down cutting through the waist band.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Thats your opinion and you are fully entitled to it the facts do not support that opinion
    It's not so much an opinion as common sense. And the facts, contained both in the photograph (you know, the one where you mixed up left and right) and in Brown's notes, fully support what I said.

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

    The LEFT groin was stabbed, Trevor, and the stab itself was only 1" long. What you're referring to in the picture is the CUT to the RIGHT thigh that formed a flap of skin "extending up the spine of the ilium", which is precisely as Dr Brown described it.
    Yes, I know that (as I've repeatedly said), but the stab to the liver happened as a byproduct of the killer plunging his knife into the abdomen to commence the long abdominal cut, and/or by the tip of his knife when he was poking around in the process of extracting the kidney.

    Neither stab wound, whether to the groin or the liver, could have been caused by the killer cutting through her clothing.
    Thats your opinion and you are fully entitled to it the facts do not support that opinion

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Long enough and deep enough to be stitched up ! and Brown distinctly stated there was a stab to the groin and its there in the pic
    The LEFT groin was stabbed, Trevor, and the stab itself was only 1" long. What you're referring to in the picture is the CUT to the RIGHT thigh that formed a flap of skin "extending up the spine of the ilium", which is precisely as Dr Brown described it.
    he also states the liver was stabbed with a pointed instrument, so there are two stab wounds.
    Yes, I know that (as I've repeatedly said), but the stab to the liver happened as a byproduct of the killer plunging his knife into the abdomen to commence the long abdominal cut, and/or by the tip of his knife when he was poking around in the process of extracting the kidney.

    Neither stab wound, whether to the groin or the liver, could have been caused by the killer cutting through her clothing.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-11-2019, 03:57 PM.

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Besides, Trevor, that long, stitched wound we see in the mortuary photo is the more extensive cut on the right hand side, the trajectory of which is precisely described by Brown:

    "There was a flap of skin formed by the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium"
    Long enough and deep enough to be stitched up ! and Brown distinctly stated there was a stab to the groin and its there in the pic, no matter how you dress it up that isnt going to change, and he also states the liver was stabbed with a pointed instrument, so there are two stab wounds.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Besides, Trevor, that long, stitched wound we see in the mortuary photo is the more extensive cut on the right hand side, the trajectory of which is precisely described by Brown:

    "There was a flap of skin formed by the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium"

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Brown clearly describes a 1" stab wound, with a 3" cut below it.

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Again, I'm not denying that there was a stab wound - it's how it was done that interests me. Given that the killer was actively using a knife to make cuts in the pelvic area, peeling up flaps of skin from thighs to labia in the process, it is almost certain that the 1" stab to the groin was caused whilst this activity was going on - NOT as a byproduct of cutting through her clothes. You try cutting flaps of flesh from thighs to the groin and the ilium of the pelvis when there are two or three layers of clothing in the way, and you'll fail miserably. Those wounds were undoubtedly inflicted with no clothing in the way at all.
    But Sam, the pic shows a wound much longer that one inch, up to at least 5 inches, they had to stitch it up, she was stabbed that is an undeniable fact, and the knife drawn down that is also an undeniable fact, there can be no other explanation, and the groin being away from the main abdominal area adds even more weight. Dont forget this killer carried out a frenzied attack, the pic you paint is that of someone cool calm and collective, with all the time in the world to do what he did. Its not for real

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    take a look at the mortuary photo, the wound to the groin is a stab wound with out a doubt, and the knife was drawn down. If he had already lifted the clothes up there would have been no real reason to inflict that wound.
    Again, I'm not denying that there was a stab wound - it's how it was done that interests me. Given that the killer was actively using a knife to make cuts in the pelvic area, peeling up flaps of skin from thighs to labia in the process, it is almost certain that the 1" stab to the groin was caused whilst this activity was going on - NOT as a byproduct of cutting through her clothes. You try cutting flaps of flesh from thighs to the groin and the ilium of the pelvis when there are two or three layers of clothing in the way, and you'll fail miserably. Those wounds were undoubtedly inflicted with no clothing in the way at all.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    If for example the killer still had the knife in one hand and was using both hands to raise the skirts, isn't it possible the knife tip just sliced some of that fabric?

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    He wielded his knife in the pelvic area, too; on both sides, damaging the thighs and genitalia. The stab-wound to the groin was almost certainly made in the course of inflicting these wounds:

    "Below [the 1" stab in the left groin] was a cut of three inches going through all tissues making a wound of the peritoneum about the same extent.

    An inch below the crease of the thigh was a cut extending from the anterior spine of the ilium obliquely down the inner side of the left thigh and separating the left labium, forming a flap of skin up to the groin.

    There was a flap of skin formed by the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium"
    One pic is worth a thousand words !

    we are talking about the cuts to her clothing all of which went off in different directions and at different lengths they were done with the knife and not through her clothing when it was all pulled up

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    He wielded his knife in the pelvic area, too; on both sides, damaging the thighs and genitalia. The stab-wound to the groin was almost certainly made in the course of inflicting these wounds:

    "Below [the 1" stab in the left groin] was a cut of three inches going through all tissues making a wound of the peritoneum about the same extent.

    An inch below the crease of the thigh was a cut extending from the anterior spine of the ilium obliquely down the inner side of the left thigh and separating the left labium, forming a flap of skin up to the groin.

    There was a flap of skin formed by the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium"
    take a look at the mortuary photo, the wound to the groin is a stab wound with out a doubt, and the knife was drawn down. If he had already lifted the clothes up there would have been no real reason to inflict that wound. So if you accept that was done through the clothing then you must accept that others were also done in the same way.
    The mortuary photo doesn't really help in many ways because it shows the body after it had been put back together and the wounds sealed. But the groin wound is there or all to see.

    Try another experiment bundle some clothes up and stick a knife in them draw it down and across see if you are able to get the same length of cuts in all the material. The answer is you wont because its been tried.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    There was a stab wound to the groin... there would have been no need for the killer to inflict a wound to that part of the body after pulling the clothes up and targetting the abdomen.
    He wielded his knife in the pelvic area, too; on both sides, damaging the thighs and genitalia. The stab-wound to the groin was almost certainly made in the course of inflicting these wounds:

    "Below [the 1" stab in the left groin] was a cut of three inches going through all tissues making a wound of the peritoneum about the same extent.

    An inch below the crease of the thigh was a cut extending from the anterior spine of the ilium obliquely down the inner side of the left thigh and separating the left labium, forming a flap of skin up to the groin.

    There was a flap of skin formed by the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium"

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    But a 3-4 inch knife drawn down 10ins will produce a 10inch cut to the clothing which is what we have !
    "Very Old Green Alpaca Skirt – jagged cut ten and a half inches long, through waistband downwards... “Very Old Ragged Blue Skirt – red flounce, light twill lining, jagged cut ten and a half inches long, through waistband downwards"

    A longitudinal cut starting at the xiphoid process of the breastbone, such as that which opened Eddowes' abdomen, is unlikely to have been made by cutting from the waist downwards. Indeed, from the waist to the lowest extent of Eddowes' abdominal wound (i.e. the pubis) is rather less than ten and a half inches, so it's tricky to see how the cuts to the clothing could even have been made as a continuation of a wound starting higher up the body.

    Leave a comment:

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