The Bloody Piece of Apron (Recovered)

[perrymason]

I truly like it when someone does not disregard potential clues that have obvious symmetry with the Burke and Hare premise, nice job Wickerman.

Sam, although the way you casually state that there would be little blood, and he likely carried organs in his pocket from Hanbury, I dont think either is a reasonable conclusion,....with respect.

A poor man would not have mutiple coats, nor would he be unnoticed during the day with increased staining on his clothing after every kill night. Its an uneccesary solution, why would he be nonplussed about having a bloody gunk filled pocket, that gets crusty.

In the case of blood in the body, if Kate is seen at 1:35...which it appears she was, then found at 1:44..as it appears she was, then the killer must have cut her throat after a brief tussle at approx 1:36 or 1:37. In 7 minutes, he has to do all he does AND leave, so how much blood would be in her body and organs while he was working? None? or some?

The way you and Ben describe the "bloodless" kills you would think he had field dressed her, hung upside down, for sometime before starting. In Kates case, he could well have been cutting her while he body twitched and she was still bleeding. The timing, if Lawende saw her, says she had blood in her body when he cuts her abdomen.

I really cant imagine why people would suggest a person dies and is bloodless immediately after a throat cut. Folks, It dont work that way at all. In Liz's case I have heard expert opinion that she would have bled out in around 5-10 minutes, the difference between her throat cut and Kates? What, a quarter inch or less of one of two arteries not being severed. So cut Kates bleed out time in half, adding in the mutilations. That gives us between 2 1/2 and 5 minutes to bleed out....and the killer used a total of around 7 minutes for the attack, kill, cutting and departure. The only way she is realtively bloodless is if he waits from approx 1:38 until around 1:40 and change to make his FIRST abdominal cut. Then leaves finished everything before 1:44. Aint reality.

There is even evidence that Kate was lying in a lot of her blood...so we are not looking at high volume directed spray away, we are looking at oozing and accumulating, while she lay in it.
Best regards all.

[Trevor Marriott]

Well Sam
If i were a betting man i would have bet my life on you finding some fault.

As far as the faecal matter is concerned no point in doing what u said as when the killer cut the colon and released faceal matters this would all have made a mish mash of blood and faecal matter combined which would have filled the abdomen. This i would suggest would have only shown up amongst the blood staining and not as a separte faceal smearing as described.

i have alreday discussed these issues with the experts who concur with the above. so if you want to argue with a forensic pathologist and an exeperienced eviscerator you go ahead and champion your cause.

[Ben]

Hi Trevor,

I admire the proactive approach, but if your experiments demonstrated that the uterus heavily stained the cloth, why are you arguing that the cloth was not used to transport organs?

Cheers,
Ben

[Trevor Marriott]

because my friend the apron piece was described as only being spotted with blood not bloodsoaked as the results of the test show.

Had the apron piece being soaked in blood and heavily blood stained would you not have thought it would have been decsribed in that way

[Sam Flynn]

I really cant imagine why people would suggest a person dies and is bloodless immediately after a throat cut.

I didn't suggest either (a) that she would have been bloodless - only that there would have been less blood in circulation at the point that the organs were removed; or (b) that the effect would have been immediate, Mike. However, a large amount of blood would have gushed out immediately after the cut was inflicted to the throat and in the subsequent two or three minutes before he got round to removing the organs. After which point the blood pressure within the body would have dropped almost to a standstill, and the flow of fresh arterial blood into the organs would have diminished commensurately. The killer would then have been left to deal with only the residual, stagnant blood retained within the organs themselves - much of which would have needed the organs to be deliberately squeezed before it escaped.

Again, we overlook the fact that fæces were found smeared on Eddowes' extruded intestines... and fæcal matter was also found wiped on the apron piece in Goulston Street. Are we to believe that the Ripper, organs safely wrapped up in too-much cloth, ran through the streets waving his turdy hand in the air, hoping the offensive matter would dry and flake off?

[Sam Flynn]

because my friend the apron piece was described as only being spotted

As if a bloody hand or knife had been wiped on it, Trevor. Not "described as only being spotted" at all. For someone who has shown admirable initiative in constructing an (albeit flawed) experiment, you seem oddly reluctant to take on board the facts of the case as reported by reliable contemporary witnesses.

[Trevor Marriott]

Sam
There would have been a large amount of blood in the abdomen making it almost impossible to remove the oragns under those circunstances.

i have published other photos showing a dead body and it clearly shows the large anount of blood in the abdomen. There would have to have been a large volume having regard to the abdominal wounds.

[Trevor Marriott]

Now u r going singular inferring the killer only wiped one hand perhaps the killer was the one armed man in "The Fugitive"

remeber the saying one picture is worth a thousand words and that certainly is the case with regards to the tests and the results

[Ben]

Had the apron piece being soaked in blood and heavily blood stained would you not have thought it would have been decsribed in that way

But the corner of the apron was described that way, Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

only a corner ? you need to look at the photo showing exactly how much blood staining a freshly removed uterus would cause wrapped in a cloth it is immense

[Ben]

If the body in which the uterus resided had been blood-let to the extent that Eddowes' was, it would have significantly dampened the part of the apron in which the organs were placed and seeped through the layers in the manner described by Sam a couple of pages back.

[Trevor Marriott]

Absolute rubbish !!!!!!!!!! blood letting we are in cloud cuckoo land now.

Sam has set himself up here as the resident medical expert he admits he has had no medical training. I am not a medical expert but since becoming involved with experts and conducting the tests using living and dead donors i have learnt an awful lot in relation to these important issues.

What i would say is that if anyone including Sam has any quetions in realtion to these matters then i would be happy to receive their questions etc and pass them onto the experts and post both questions and answers on here.

And now i will bid you all adieu till the morrow !

[Ben]

Absolute rubbish !!!!!!!!!!

Woah! Chill out, Trev, you're worse than me!

Surely you're not arguing that blood-letting didn't occur to an extent on account of the the throat being severed?

[Trevor Marriott]

The throat cutting was the method of killing it would seem in all of the murders although Champman may have been strangled first. There is nothing sinister in this in Victorian times throat cutting was the accepted method of killing. The aspect of these murders whiuch make it different are the severity of the cuts almost to the point of decapitation

I dont know where this blood letting has come from but it should be disregarded forthwith in my opinion.

Stick to the basics and the facts two many people try to go to deep into some of the points hence the blood letting

[Monty]

Trevor

Judging from what Ive read in news reports of that era, stabbing was the main choice of attack. They far outweighed throat cuts.

There donors, were cadiavers used? If so, how long had they been deceased? Minutes? Had there been a significant amout of time to let the blood settle?