The Bloody Piece of Apron Redux

[Errata]

I really do think Errata, that you were on the money there with your suggestion! Be interesting to see if others agree or not!

Wow. To be honest I'm not sure it was so much of a suggestion as thinking out loud, but sure!

I think he cut through the upper layers. Buttons are everywhere, the upper part of the cut is a mess... I don't know what cuts or stains were found on the bodices and vest, but that makes sense to me. What we know about the skirts is this:

1. By the time the artist was on scene, the skirts were shoved up to the breasts, exposing the body.

2. Ticking, alpaca, chintz, and I would imagine canvas for the apron are INCREDIBLY difficult to cut. Ticking and canvas are even hard to stab through they are so tightly woven. Alpaca being a wool is probably easy to stab through, difficult to cut through, and has the added bonus of dulling the knife.

3. The skirts were cut to varying degrees. from an inch and a half to ten and a half inches

4. There is evidently a wide variety of blood staining on the skirts.

5. No matter what other cuts may have been made to the apron, it was cut deliberately at some point to remove a large portion.

What we don't know:

1. We don't know how much her skirts were twisted around in the course of normal wear, or from the attack. I personally don't know whether the cuts to the skirts were evaluated on the body, or after removal. A cut 5 inches left of center on the table might have been dead center on her.

2. I offhand don't know how much blood there was pooling around the body. The larger the blood pool, the greater the chance for staining not coming from the injuries themselves.

3. We don't know when the killer shoved the skirts up, whether it was utilitarian or whether is was staging.

Theres more on both lists, but I thought that might be a good start.

[curious4]

contraception (sorry)

Hello Maria,

I rather think the idea behind the sponge plus vinegar was to make the (er.. )environment less condusive to the (er...) little swimmers. Something to do with alkaline or acid - wish I hadnīt slept through my chemistry lessons now.

I canīt see it being used to stop or lessen menstrual bleeding - think your author has got hold of the wrong end of the stick (or sponge).

Regards,
c4

P.S.
Interesting fact? I first heard of this from an old cleaning-lady, when I had an after-school job working at Malling Place - formerly West Malling Place - a private asylum mentioned as a place where one of the mad medical students was a patient for a while.

[Dark Ali]

Phillipa Gregory routinely makes me want to spit.

Ok, then we will go with this source then, if you find it more tasteful

[mariab]

vinegar's PH is similar to the body's so irritation would be minimal unless exposure was for a very extended time.

Wow, vinegar's PH is similar to the human body's cultures? How can that be? Vinegar is an acid, right? (Not an alcali?) Then why does it burn if anyone inhales it (accidentally, while seasoning an Italian salad, not that I've ever tried inhaling vinegar for entertainment purposes!). If I'm not mistaken, it was also used in the (dark) ages when women fainted, to revive them?

Completely agree with Hunter's assessment of the cuts in the garments and with the blood on the edge of some of the cuts having had its provenance most probably from the knife already having been bloody – and here I'd wager, from the face mutilations. I have a feeling that the face mutilations came first. Pure conjecture, but it seems that collecting the organs was so important to the killer, that afterwards he might have not possessed the inclination to proceed with the face, especially when seriously smeared with blood and fecal matter, which most probably was a first for him. Plus, the facial mutilations required much less time than the disembowelling and getting out the kidney. And I too believe that the facial mutilations' shape was semi-random.

This seems to be a more frenzied murder that those of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman... which could mean a lot of things I guess. If Kate's murder was linked to Liz Stride's, it may have been the result of a bad night for the killer up to that point and he was quite worked up or it may have been a progression of the killer's general mental state...who really knows?

I'd say, BOTH, Hunter. Rage from having missed his aim with Stride, plus progression of slaying “needs“.

But I don't think the organ removal was randon chance because the uterus was targeted in two other instances and the kidney is easily overlooked. There was a deliberate reason for the uterus removal. This guy knew where this stuff was and had a reason for taking them.

Darn, this makes me think of Tumblety. Whom I don't believe that we should completely dismiss as a suspect.

[mariab]

I rather think the idea behind the sponge plus vinegar was to make the environment less condusive to the (er...) little swimmers. Something to do with alkaline or acid - wish I hadnīt slept through my chemistry lessons now.

I'm not denying that vinegar was used for desinfenctory purposes, what I'm saying is that its acidity will kill the natural flora of the sensitive environment, resulting in inflammatory and allergic reactions. Still, I'm pretty sure that they diluted the vinegar in water first. (Don't want to get too graphic, but I'm sure that lots of the female posters among you have been warned against so-called “intimate deodorants“ by their gynecologists. It's the exact same thing with vinegar.)

I canīt see it being used to stop or lessen menstrual bleeding

No clue if vinegar stops the bleeding like Merchurochrom/Merchurom (which, by the by, works wonders in stopping the bleeding in deep cuts, with the extra advantage that it doesn't burn when poured on a wound), but, to get graphic again, the vinegar might have been used partly as desinfenctory prevention and partly as a superstition. The sponge was the thing that did the job (of absorbing the blood).

[Archaic]

re: Tape Strings, Calico, Chintz, Ticking & Pockets

Hi guys. I have a few quick definitions for those of you unfamiliar with Victorian clothing terms.

"Tape Strings" are ribbons. On aprons they were called "apron strings". They were usually used to fasten clothing to the body. Sometimes a coat had outer buttons but still had an inner "tie" to help secure it. (Today we still see this on bathrobes and dressing gowns.) Tape strings required less labor than sewing in buttons & button-holes, especially in the days when sewing was done by hand.

"Calico" is a simple cheap fabric that originated in Calicut, India. In America it's what Pioneer women out West were likely to have worn as it was cheaper and more durable than most other clothing fabrics. In America calico is usually characterized by a tiny all-over floral print, often in bright contrasting colors ( which is why ''Calico'' became a term for brightly multi-colored cats), but in England the term "calico" is applied to a plain inexpensive unbleached white or off-white cotton cloth.

"Chintz" is a lightly glazed cotton fabric originally produced in India. In the Victorian era bright colors and floral patterns were favored, such as "Rose-patterned Chintz". It was relatively inexpensive and popular among the working classes who couldn't more expensive afford fabrics like silk. The phrase "chintzy" meaning "cheap" or "low-class" comes from the well-to-do people who looked down on the bright and often clashing colors & patterns favored by the Victorian working classes. (The phrase "chintzy" is still very common in the US, where its origins have been largely forgotten; I'm not sure if it's as common in the UK.)

"Ticking" is a sturdy cotton-twill fabric that was most commonly used for making pillows and mattresses. It has a close and durable weave. Pillows and mattresses used to be stuffed with straw, feathers, or horsehair, and this dense weave helped to keep tiny feather quills, etc., from working their way out. Ticking commonly had a simple striped pattern, and if any of you remember seeing old feather-pillows at your grandmother's house you'll probably remember what it looks like. When ticking is too old and worn out the little feathers inside the pillow start to work their way out. (I remember pulling tiny pin-feathers out of my grandmother's pillows when I was a kid, and being surprised that they just kept coming!) Catherine Eddowes carried "pockets" made of ticking.

"Pockets" were actually the fore-runners of ladies' purses. They were simple in design, usually square or rectangular and formed of 3 closed sides of fabric with a fold-over flap or drawstring at the top, though the simplest were open at the top. They were typically carried inside a skirt pocket or tied to the waist on the inside of one's clothing. In the 1600's & 1700's "pockets" belonging to well-off ladies were often beautifully hand-embroidered. In the 1800's "purses" with their own carrying straps became more common. They might be made of velvet, satin, leather, bead-work, etc. Catherine was too poor to own a purse, so the simple "pockets" made of cheap ticking were what she used to carry her meager belongings.

For those of you who live in or visit London, the Victoria and Albert Museum has a mind-blowing Antique Clothing & Accessories exhibit ...I spent days there!
(Website: http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/index.html)

In the US, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has the wonderful Costume Institute. (Website: http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_ar...tume_institute)

Local museums, historical societies, and vintage clothing shops and shows are great sources too- but bear in mind that it is more likely to be "upper class" clothing that has been preserved, as the poor were forced to use everything they owned until it completely fell apart.

Please feel free to ask if you have any more questions about Victorian apparel, and I'll do my best to help.

Best regards,
Archaic

[mariab]

WoW, Archaic knows everything about Victorian costumes! Thank you so much for the explanations. (I was only familiar with calico, through opera costumes. I assume that Calicut is Calcutta?)

[Archaic]

Hi Maria.

Calicut and Calcutta are actually two different cities. Calicut was at one time larger than Calcutta.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Sorry, forgot to say "you're welcome"!

[mariab]

Wow, very interesting, Archaic. Last spring a colleague at the University of Chicago gave an anthropology seminar about ancient megalopolis, among them Calcutta (and I spoke once there about Tenochtitlān, which is the coolest name for a city ever, I think), but I missed the Calcutta-part because I had to get back to Europe.

[Archaic]

Thank You!

Hi everybody.

Please forgive me for interrupting the thread, but I just wanted to send a quick "thank you" to all of you who've sent me pm's and emails welcoming me back. Your friendship and kindness is much appreciated.

I'll try to answer each one of you, but in the meantime, I guess the short answer is that I'm not 100% yet and the ultimate prognosis is still up in the air, but at least I can walk again and I'm very grateful for that.

Thanks again ,
Archaic

[mariab]

Please let me join the others in welcoming you back, Archaic, and I'm totally positive that you'll get at 100% very-very soon.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Archaic,

Thanks for that info on various materials. Very useful indeed and not just for this thread.

I couldn't help but think, because that outer skirt of Kate's was so distinctive - chintz with michaelmas daisies, that it would have been hard to misidentify her (not sure that's a word, but if not it should be). That skirt would have been very hard to forget, and I'm sure that not many women had such a distinctive garment on that night, in that particular area. I suspect that because Kate was so poor that skirt might have been made from a bit of old curtaining that she'd picked up somewhere.

On an entirely different note - vinegar soaked sponges seems to have been used for thousands of years as a contraceptive, so presumably it had something going for it!

I'm going to have to go through your posts Hunter and Errata, and get back later because there's a lot in them! Good stuff though by the looks of it.

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

[Hunter]

LOL... I'm sorry, Maria. I wasn't very clear about the vinegar, but what I meant to say was that, being a mild acid, it had cleansing properties that weren't harsh and the acid is neutralized quickly to balance with internal fluids... think I'd better stick with forensics here.

Both Janie and Archaic are treasures, to be sure. They offer information on the cultural aspect of the times that is invaluable, even before we attempt to understand the more obvious interest... and it seems Errata is in that league as well. We're in good company, Maria.

[mariab]

Obviously Jane and Archaic are the specialists in everyday Victorian life, costumes, and settings, which is invaluable for the social history of Whitechapel. I'm looking forward to Jane's book about precisely that particular subject.
Next time I'll walk inside my kitchen, I'm thinking of checking the alcohol percentage of the vinegar I got there, white and aceto balsamico.;-)

[Jane Coram]

Hi Maria,

The book is coming. I'm about three quarters of the way through, so a few more weeks will see the back of it!

I'm up to my neck in it today, so can't get back to reply to meaty posts here, but should be alright again tomorrow. There's some good stuff in there!

Much love

Janie

xxxx