The Bloody Piece of Apron Redux

[Chava]

I'm sure it was worn and torn but the fabric would remain the fabric, and the kind of fabric used to make aprons was fairly dense and would not be easy to cut. As Jane points out, tearing it would take some time and would not be quiet. And with respect, errata. starting in the middle and sawing away would also have taken some time on cotton or linen. He's probably not working with material on a regular basis so he has no way to know how the material will react and he'd be wasting precious time finding out.

I think he cut it and tore it. But it strikes me that for him to waste time doing it at all there had to have been an overwhelming reason so this is an important discussion. I believe that he either cut himself and needed a fast bandage or he thought he had his little bag for souvenirs and found out he'd forgotten or dropped it. Whatever reason he had, it's not a carefully-thought-out one. He's working on the fly here. That in itself is interesting because on the other murders I think he had it all worked out ahead of time and the events went like clockwork. Something happened on the Eddowes kill that took him by surprise and he acted accordingly.

[Jane Coram]

I think that from what Errata and Curious says above, that it seems a cut, assisted by tearing (well pulling anyway) to hasten the progress of the knife, sounds like a fair bet.
I'd more or less always assumed that was the case, simply because that's what I've always done with material.

Probably worth checking back through the reports to see how they describe it exactly.

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

[curious4]

torn apron

Hello Chava,

Donīt forget that the apron had already been mended once, so must have been fairly well worn. I have cut and torn off pieces of old cotton garments to use as dusters, often using a knife when too lazy to look for the scissors!
A problem would have been the seam, which would be much harder to tear through, and it was cut through or torn, as the seams were compared and they matched. Donīt they say that maniacs have super-strength? And he (JTR )appears to have been in a frenzy.

I believe the policeman stated that she was wearing the apron, so donīt think she would have torn it herself - she did have the twelve pieces of rag, after all.

Best wishes

c4

"Time and trouble will tame a headstrong young woman, but a headstrong old woman is uncontrollable by any earthly force" Dorothy Sayers

[Errata]

I know that in all my years of working at a renaissance festival i have cut fabric with a knife many times. Mostly using thhe method of holding it taut and stabbing it in the middle and start sawing and pulling. Certainly not as easy or neat as shears, but not overly time consuming.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Chava,

I think you're quite right about it being a torn cut, rather than just a straightforward cut.

We had a discussion about this on another board many moons ago, and I think I have the thread saved somewhere.

The long and the short of it was that it seems that the apron was cut to start if off and torn to speed up the process. There were some experiments done, and images put up of the difference in the edges, but unfortunately I don't think the images saved. I'll see if I can duplicate them using my scanner and some old scrap material later today.

Basically, the edges of a cut look very different from the edges of a tear. In a a tear, the warp threads (the ones that run down the fabric) are snapped and broken at the end; the weft threads (the ones that go over and under across the material) lie separated in rows for where they come away from the main body of the material.

In a cut, the line of the edge is clean and very clearly cut, with the weft threads lying close to the sheared warp threads.

It's probably worth going back over the testimony to see what they said about it at the time, but I'm fairly confident in saying that it was torn and cut. It must have been cut through the seam where the new patch was stitched to the old material at least and at the top of the band, because he had to start the tear off. Of course that is quite relevant to how much noise it would have made - a tear is much noisier than a straightforward cut. In fact it can make a hell of a racket, especially on a sturdy fabric!

I'll see if I can scan the fabric samples in later, unless anyone else has got the time to do it before me! The fabric of Kate's apron was a tough fabric according to the reports, I can't remember the exact wording. Probably a heavy cotton, or linen. Archaic might have a better idea of the fabric.

I'll see if I can find that old thread I've got saved and pick out any interesting bits I can find.

Gotta do some work now!

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[Chava]

It's not a question of the thinness of the material. It's how the material is woven that dictates how easy it is to cut. (And any apron I've ever seen going back to the early 50s were made of durable material that stood up to a lot of washing.)

But it's worth an experiment if someone has an old pinny to hand which I don't. Wet it slightly and try to cut it with a sharp knife. I honestly think it snags and tears with a single blade where it won't snag with a scissors or a shears.

[curious4]

good night old cxck

Hello Carol and Archaic!

Thank you, Archaic, for making this expression so clear - much better than I could. I liked the comparison with "mon vieux", although as Carol says it was used when speaking to children as well. My french is a little rusty so I am not sure if "mon vieux" is used in this way.

Hello Carol,

Lovely to speak to someone in Sweden from Kent -and my age as well - nearest I have come was my daughter-in-lawīs Swedish midwife, who had lived in Rochester for twelve years!

Anyway, Kate Eddowes is my favorite among the victims, she didnīt deserve her fate - or to be labelled a common prostitute - judging by the hop-picking she did try other ways to support herself when she could.



I think she would be pleased that her last recorded words were a cheery "good night old cxck"! Altogether in character.

By the way, Carol, shall we see what the censor does with that traditional english pudding spotted dick? Nothing, I see!

Chava - I think the material in Kateīs apron would have been quite old and thin, so not hard to cut with a knife.

Best wishes to all,

C4

[Chava]

I just realized that sounds like I think our boy didn't cut the apron at all! I do. But I just want to point out that cutting it with his blade would be hard and time-consuming. I wonder if he tore it along the mend. If he did cut it with his knife he would have had to be very strong to do it quickly.

[Chava]

I'm sure this has already been covered, and I haven't had time to go back to the original reports and check, but if you're thinking that apron was cut with a knife I don't think that could have happened. There would be great difficulty even with a very sharp blade. Especially if the fabric was wet with blood or rain or whatever. It's easy to cut fabric with shears. You basically cut in, set the shears and run them through. But shears have two blades and work with the weft of the material. You always cut away from yourself, not towards yourself not just because it's safer but also because it's easier. Cutting towards, even if you're holding the fabric tight, is really difficult and time-consuming. The blade would snag and shred the cloth over and over. Cutting away with a single blade would be just about impossible. The only way I could see cutting the fabric with a knife in this way would be to fold it and cut along the fold so that both sides of the cloth drag away from the blade and even that would take a lot of time.

He could have cut through just about anything Eddowes was wearing closer to her body as the body itself would provide the tension necessary to help the knife. But the apron was just tied around her waist and then was loose. And the tension at the waist would not have been sufficient to help the knife through the cloth.

[Archaic]

"Good Night, Old C*ck"- Defintions & Usage In LVP Dictionaries

I've really enjoyed the posts about old-time slang and colloquialisms, so thanks everybody.

We all know Catherine Eddowes said "Good night, old c*ck" as she left the police station, and to modern ears (and to the Casebook profanity-sensor software!) it does sound a bit rude. From various posts I've read over the years it's apparent that some think Catherine made this remark with intentional rudeness, and that it expressed a sarcastic or derisive attitude to the police as well as resentment at having been locked up.

But I've gone through a number of Victorian-Era dictionaries, and far from being rude or profane, the phrase is described as being "a particularly friendly and familiar" mode of address, and in some it's even described as "a term of endearment". The synonyms most often given for "old c*ck" are "old fellow" and "old chap".

In American English, the equivalent LVP colloquialism is given as "old hoss", which was an affectionate term used among male friends.

In LVP-Era French, the equivalent phrase is given as "mon vieux". "Mon" is the possessive "my", and "vieux" means "old". The noun is deliberately left off as an indication of casual familiarity, and together these words become an idiomatic phrase meaning "my old friend", "my old comrade", or "my old fellow". This phrase "mon vieux" is still common in daily usage and is now usually translated as "old buddy".

So my conclusion is that Catherine Eddowes wasn't being the slightest bit rude when she said "Good night, old c*ck"; she was instead being quite friendly and familiar. As these may well be the last words Kate spoke to anyone before encountering her murderer, I feel we owe it to her to understand that her last known words were so friendly and pleasant.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Carol]

Hi C4!
Very interesting post of yours about the poem from the 14th century. Food for thought!
Love
Carol

[Carol]

Hi Archaic!
Thanks! Welcome back to you, too! Thanks also for all the interesting adverts you have posted. I think my mother used a 'douche' when I was young. It wouldn't have been her own decision, I think. It would have been my father's. He was very 'modern' in 'health subjects' but hopelessly conservative in most other things. However, knowing my mother she might not have actually used the 'douche' - she was a bit frightened of my father (so was I) and she would never have dared to say anything against him. It's not anything I can see her doing. She probably enjoyed her private little 'rebellion'! She had a great sense of humour (thankfully for her) and could normally see the ridiculous in life. I can remember seeing a strange-looking plastic apparatus in her top drawer when I was a young girl. I put two and two together some years later when I saw a similar 'apparatus' in the window of a shop half-way between Chatham and Rochester - I knew it was a shop where you could get 'health aids', i.e. condoms, etc. For the benefit of those posters who do not know me I'm 64 years old and I'm writing about the 50's and 60's.
Love
Carol

Hi everyone,
I wrote 'plastic' in the above post relating to the intriguing 'item'. I should have written 'rubber'. It had a rubber bulb for pressing (I tried it!) and a thin rubber length of piping attached. It was a browny colour - more tan really.
Love
Carol

[curious4]

me old cxxk sparrow

Hello Carol,

I imagine the snowdrops are already out in Kent, while spring is still a long way off here in the frozen north (Stockholm).

Strange, I was just thinking last night that the expression was also used when speaking to children - although "Whatīs up cxxck" probably sounds very strange to our american cousins!

I found the book I mentioned earlier skulking on the bookshelf, minus jacket and this was the quote I was talking about earlier in a poem written in about the 14th century:

"Then I hied me into Est-Chepe;
One cryes rybbs of beef, and many a pye;
Pewter pottes they clattered on a heap;
There was harpe, pype, and mynstrelsy.
Yea, by ****! nay, by ****! some began crye;"

Roughly (very)

Then I went to Eastcheap; one called out ribs of beef, many pies,
There were pewter pots clattering in a heap, there were harps, pipes and minstrel music, some began to call out "Yes, by cxxk, No, by cxxk! .

Long leap to being the origin of cockney but it seems this expression was being used then in the East End.

I love this book, it has what I think is the original version of "Knockīd em in the Old Kent Road and a very moving poem written in 1941 called "Doing Nicely, Thank You", as well as accounts of many historical events written at the time.

Best wishes,
C4

[Carol]

Hello Carol,

Nice to hear from another Kentish exile! I do so miss the Kent countryside!

Yes and what about ****-a-doodle-doo, stopcock, poor old **** robin and that scottish staple ****-a-leekie soup lol.

Best wishes,

C4

Hi C4,
I miss the Kent countryside, too!
Just before I went to sleep last night I remembered that the 'grown-ups' in Chatham always said 'Poor little ****' when they were talking about a child who was ill or had an accident. These words were used on a daily basis.
Love
Carol

[Carol]

Hi Carol! Glad to see you posting again!


Archaic

Hi Archaic!
Thanks! Welcome back to you, too! Thanks also for all the interesting adverts you have posted. I think my mother used a 'douche' when I was young. It wouldn't have been her own decision, I think. It would have been my father's. He was very 'modern' in 'health subjects' but hopelessly conservative in most other things. However, knowing my mother she might not have actually used the 'douche' - she was a bit frightened of my father (so was I) and she would never have dared to say anything against him. It's not anything I can see her doing. She probably enjoyed her private little 'rebellion'! She had a great sense of humour (thankfully for her) and could normally see the ridiculous in life. I can remember seeing a strange-looking plastic apparatus in her top drawer when I was a young girl. I put two and two together some years later when I saw a similar 'apparatus' in the window of a shop half-way between Chatham and Rochester - I knew it was a shop where you could get 'health aids', i.e. condoms, etc. For the benefit of those posters who do not know me I'm 64 years old and I'm writing about the 50's and 60's.
Love
Carol