The Bloody Piece of Apron Redux

[Archaic]

Hi Janie; thank you. I'll be very happy to assist you in any way I can.

I have oodles of detailed LVP-related information stored in countless computer files, not to mention all the arcane knowledge that perpetually clogs my poor little brain

Just let me know what kind of stuff you're after. We'll have fun!

Cheers, Archaic

[Jane Coram]

Thanks Archaic,

I might well be contacting you shortly about about the book, and I'd like to use some of the information in it. I'll put a little flower next to your name in the acknowledgments. Lol.

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[mariab]

Hi Jane,
great that your book is almost done! I'll most certainly purchase it (perhaps electronically?). I won't have much time for “meaty“ posts as next either, as I'm (finally) back to completing a French article due for publication which requires quite a bit of work, there are tons of things missing, including all the (massive) results from my research in Paris since July. I'm still trying to get into the (for the much part, already forgotten!) details, and I was even wrong about its length. Somehow I remembered it to be already over 20 p., but it's just about 15 p.. It's funny how memory (and ego?) play tricks on one...
Anyway, good luck and much fun with the rest of your manuscript.

[Archaic]

ALERT! & Medicinal Uses of Vinegar In The LVP

Thanks, guys. There sure have been a lot of terrific contributions to this thread!

>> Before proceeding any further, I would like to take a moment to propose a new
International Sign Language Casebook Smilie Alert For "DELICATE SUBJECT MATTER": >> < <

(I was going to call it the "Sensitive Man Alert", but that would be sexist.)


So far this Alert has no 'Higher Alert' levels, just the basic everyday terror level,
so whenever you see the dread >> << advance at your own peril...


OK, ladies, now that all the men have left, I just want to say that this thread gone in some rather unusual directions and raised some very diverse & obscure subject matter, but I think that's a good thing! I have a little information regarding the medicinal use of Vinegar that might be of interest. I've read through a large number of late 19th C. medical books and journals over the last few years, and what I recall seeing vinegar recommended for was the treatment of venereal infections; principally Gonorrhea. (That's such a loathsome word, I don't even like to type it.) Venereal infections were sadly common among all classes of people. There were no antibiotics yet and no treatments were really effective, but vinegar rinses were prescribed for both men and women.

I don't recall vinegar being discussed as any kind of ‘contraceptive aid’, but I do remember seeing diluted vinegar advised for postpartum and post-menstrual feminine hygiene. Highly diluted vinegar is still used for that today. Apple Cider Vinegar is an old-time "tonic" and health aid with a large variety of uses, though I rather doubt it was an effective spermicide. But there were few alternatives, so I suppose it was better than nothing. Of course, it's entirely possible that even though the medical professionals were prescribing vinegar sponge-baths for basic hygiene and the treatment of venereal infections, great masses of people could have been relying on the purported efficacy of vinegar as a 'home remedy' spermicide.

If any doctors believed vinegar really was effective as a contraceptive aid, I'm not entirely sure they'd have been comfortable sharing that information other than privately. The Victorian Era medical journals were circulated mostly among professionals, but often available at libraries, etc. They are remarkably matter-of-fact and graphic about most subjects, sometimes startling so, but when it comes to sexual matters they suddenly become very circumspect, making oblique references and employing euphemisms. When a more sexually explicit article was published- for instance one describing the grotesque nature of the Ripper murders and speculating as to the sexual behaviors indulged in by the perpetrator- there was often a flurry of editorials written by other doctors complaining about the discussion of “morally repugnant and disgusting matters”.

Back to vinegar. I've heard of street prostitutes using Coca-Cola douches in the 20th C., and I wouldn't be surprised if Coke is a more toxic spermicide than vinegar! Just out of curiosity I looked up "vinegar spermicide", and was surprised to discover that many people today are using vinegar "to increase their chances of conceiving a girl” (??) They're apparently referring to a now-questioned theory of sex-selection called the ‘Shettles Method’. It’s supposed to help parents choose the sex of the child they wish to conceive. I had never heard of it before, but someone on the internet offered this helpful explanation of the complex biological processes involved: “Y-sperm don’t like vinegar, it freezes their tails off!” ...Umm, I have no idea if that factoid is true or not, but that particular individual's spelling didn't inspire confidence.

Guess it just goes to show that it's always been hard to tell the difference between good Medicine, genuine Folk Remedies, Old Wives' Tales, and Urban Myths.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Jane Coram]

Hi Maria,

The book is coming. I'm about three quarters of the way through, so a few more weeks will see the back of it!

I'm up to my neck in it today, so can't get back to reply to meaty posts here, but should be alright again tomorrow. There's some good stuff in there!

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[mariab]

Obviously Jane and Archaic are the specialists in everyday Victorian life, costumes, and settings, which is invaluable for the social history of Whitechapel. I'm looking forward to Jane's book about precisely that particular subject.
Next time I'll walk inside my kitchen, I'm thinking of checking the alcohol percentage of the vinegar I got there, white and aceto balsamico.;-)

[Hunter]

LOL... I'm sorry, Maria. I wasn't very clear about the vinegar, but what I meant to say was that, being a mild acid, it had cleansing properties that weren't harsh and the acid is neutralized quickly to balance with internal fluids... think I'd better stick with forensics here.

Both Janie and Archaic are treasures, to be sure. They offer information on the cultural aspect of the times that is invaluable, even before we attempt to understand the more obvious interest... and it seems Errata is in that league as well. We're in good company, Maria.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Archaic,

Thanks for that info on various materials. Very useful indeed and not just for this thread.

I couldn't help but think, because that outer skirt of Kate's was so distinctive - chintz with michaelmas daisies, that it would have been hard to misidentify her (not sure that's a word, but if not it should be). That skirt would have been very hard to forget, and I'm sure that not many women had such a distinctive garment on that night, in that particular area. I suspect that because Kate was so poor that skirt might have been made from a bit of old curtaining that she'd picked up somewhere.

On an entirely different note - vinegar soaked sponges seems to have been used for thousands of years as a contraceptive, so presumably it had something going for it!

I'm going to have to go through your posts Hunter and Errata, and get back later because there's a lot in them! Good stuff though by the looks of it.

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

[mariab]

Please let me join the others in welcoming you back, Archaic, and I'm totally positive that you'll get at 100% very-very soon.

[Archaic]

Thank You!

Hi everybody.

Please forgive me for interrupting the thread, but I just wanted to send a quick "thank you" to all of you who've sent me pm's and emails welcoming me back. Your friendship and kindness is much appreciated.

I'll try to answer each one of you, but in the meantime, I guess the short answer is that I'm not 100% yet and the ultimate prognosis is still up in the air, but at least I can walk again and I'm very grateful for that.

Thanks again ,
Archaic

[mariab]

Wow, very interesting, Archaic. Last spring a colleague at the University of Chicago gave an anthropology seminar about ancient megalopolis, among them Calcutta (and I spoke once there about Tenochtitlŕn, which is the coolest name for a city ever, I think), but I missed the Calcutta-part because I had to get back to Europe.

[Archaic]

Hi Maria.

Calicut and Calcutta are actually two different cities. Calicut was at one time larger than Calcutta.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Sorry, forgot to say "you're welcome"!

[mariab]

WoW, Archaic knows everything about Victorian costumes! Thank you so much for the explanations. (I was only familiar with calico, through opera costumes. I assume that Calicut is Calcutta?)

[Archaic]

re: Tape Strings, Calico, Chintz, Ticking &amp; Pockets

Hi guys. I have a few quick definitions for those of you unfamiliar with Victorian clothing terms.

"Tape Strings" are ribbons. On aprons they were called "apron strings". They were usually used to fasten clothing to the body. Sometimes a coat had outer buttons but still had an inner "tie" to help secure it. (Today we still see this on bathrobes and dressing gowns.) Tape strings required less labor than sewing in buttons & button-holes, especially in the days when sewing was done by hand.

"Calico" is a simple cheap fabric that originated in Calicut, India. In America it's what Pioneer women out West were likely to have worn as it was cheaper and more durable than most other clothing fabrics. In America calico is usually characterized by a tiny all-over floral print, often in bright contrasting colors ( which is why ''Calico'' became a term for brightly multi-colored cats), but in England the term "calico" is applied to a plain inexpensive unbleached white or off-white cotton cloth.

"Chintz" is a lightly glazed cotton fabric originally produced in India. In the Victorian era bright colors and floral patterns were favored, such as "Rose-patterned Chintz". It was relatively inexpensive and popular among the working classes who couldn't more expensive afford fabrics like silk. The phrase "chintzy" meaning "cheap" or "low-class" comes from the well-to-do people who looked down on the bright and often clashing colors & patterns favored by the Victorian working classes. (The phrase "chintzy" is still very common in the US, where its origins have been largely forgotten; I'm not sure if it's as common in the UK.)

"Ticking" is a sturdy cotton-twill fabric that was most commonly used for making pillows and mattresses. It has a close and durable weave. Pillows and mattresses used to be stuffed with straw, feathers, or horsehair, and this dense weave helped to keep tiny feather quills, etc., from working their way out. Ticking commonly had a simple striped pattern, and if any of you remember seeing old feather-pillows at your grandmother's house you'll probably remember what it looks like. When ticking is too old and worn out the little feathers inside the pillow start to work their way out. (I remember pulling tiny pin-feathers out of my grandmother's pillows when I was a kid, and being surprised that they just kept coming!) Catherine Eddowes carried "pockets" made of ticking.

"Pockets" were actually the fore-runners of ladies' purses. They were simple in design, usually square or rectangular and formed of 3 closed sides of fabric with a fold-over flap or drawstring at the top, though the simplest were open at the top. They were typically carried inside a skirt pocket or tied to the waist on the inside of one's clothing. In the 1600's & 1700's "pockets" belonging to well-off ladies were often beautifully hand-embroidered. In the 1800's "purses" with their own carrying straps became more common. They might be made of velvet, satin, leather, bead-work, etc. Catherine was too poor to own a purse, so the simple "pockets" made of cheap ticking were what she used to carry her meager belongings.

For those of you who live in or visit London, the Victoria and Albert Museum has a mind-blowing Antique Clothing & Accessories exhibit ...I spent days there!
(Website: http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/index.html)

In the US, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has the wonderful Costume Institute. (Website: http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_ar...tume_institute)

Local museums, historical societies, and vintage clothing shops and shows are great sources too- but bear in mind that it is more likely to be "upper class" clothing that has been preserved, as the poor were forced to use everything they owned until it completely fell apart.

Please feel free to ask if you have any more questions about Victorian apparel, and I'll do my best to help.

Best regards,
Archaic

[mariab]

I rather think the idea behind the sponge plus vinegar was to make the environment less condusive to the (er...) little swimmers. Something to do with alkaline or acid - wish I hadn´t slept through my chemistry lessons now.

I'm not denying that vinegar was used for desinfenctory purposes, what I'm saying is that its acidity will kill the natural flora of the sensitive environment, resulting in inflammatory and allergic reactions. Still, I'm pretty sure that they diluted the vinegar in water first. (Don't want to get too graphic, but I'm sure that lots of the female posters among you have been warned against so-called “intimate deodorants“ by their gynecologists. It's the exact same thing with vinegar.)

I can´t see it being used to stop or lessen menstrual bleeding

No clue if vinegar stops the bleeding like Merchurochrom/Merchurom (which, by the by, works wonders in stopping the bleeding in deep cuts, with the extra advantage that it doesn't burn when poured on a wound), but, to get graphic again, the vinegar might have been used partly as desinfenctory prevention and partly as a superstition. The sponge was the thing that did the job (of absorbing the blood).