Eddowes V-shape wounds are scissors I think

[Michael W Richards]

Schwartz said that it was BSM who uttered the cry.

re-Read my post Sam, that's what I said. I'm asking whether its possible though that Israel saw the scuffle, but that Liz squealed "Lipski" instead of BSM. Ive always wondered whether Israel actually did see something.... inside the gates, perhaps as he left the club via the side door,... and chose or was asked to modify a few elements of that story to take heat off the club as a possible source of the killer.

He had all day to get the story "right" after all.

[Sam Flynn]

re-Read my post Sam, that's what I said.

I know what you meant, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clearly to have seen/heard BSM call out "Lipski!" to pipeman. Stride had already been thrown to the ground at this point, and it's unlikely that Schwartz would have mistaken a male voice calling out from a standing position with that of a woman on the floor.

[Abby Normal]

I know what you meant, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clearly to have seen/heard BSM call out "Lipski!" to pipeman. Stride had already been thrown to the ground at this point, and it's unlikely that Schwartz would have mistaken a male voice calling out from a standing position with that of a woman on the floor.

of course he wouldn't Sam. MR is going with the conspiracy nonsense again.

and chose or was asked to modify a few elements of that story to take heat off the club as a possible source of the killer.

He had all day to get the story "right" after all.

[Bridewell]

re-Read my post Sam, that's what I said. I'm asking whether its possible though that Israel saw the scuffle, but that Liz squealed "Lipski" instead of BSM. Ive always wondered whether Israel actually did see something.... inside the gates, perhaps as he left the club via the side door,... and chose or was asked to modify a few elements of that story to take heat off the club as a possible source of the killer.

He had all day to get the story "right" after all.

Wouldn't the greater risk to the continued existence of the club come from a cover-up? Okay so (if there was indeed a cover-up) they got away with it, but they couldn't have known in advance that that would be the case. If they'd identified the killer and denounced him, surely that could only be to their credit (except to the ant-Semitic - but they're never going to be won over, no matter what you do).

[Bridewell]

I know what you meant, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clearly to have seen/heard BSM call out "Lipski!" to pipeman. Stride had already been thrown to the ground at this point, and it's unlikely that Schwartz would have mistaken a male voice calling out from a standing position with that of a woman on the floor.

I don't have my copy of "The Ultimate" to hand, but were there not two versions of the Schwartz account - the one he gave the private investigators or whatever they were and that given to the police? I thought there was some discrepancy between the two accounts as to who had shouted 'Lipski'? (Apologies if I've mis-remembered that).

[Sam Flynn]

There may have been some discrepancies, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clear that the cry came from a man.

[Cogidubnus]

There are cases where we have seen victims faces marked and in some of those cases the marks were intentional and intended to label the victim. I read here somewhere that snitches had their faces cut to let others know what happens to them. It would seem, if the story that Kate was going to go to the authorities with a name is real, then she might be considered a "snitch" by some.

I thought this was interesting...as I recall, snitches used to have their noses cut off (no more nosiness) and/or their tongues removed (no more grassing)...

[Abby Normal]

I don't have my copy of "The Ultimate" to hand, but were there not two versions of the Schwartz account - the one he gave the private investigators or whatever they were and that given to the police? I thought there was some discrepancy between the two accounts as to who had shouted 'Lipski'? (Apologies if I've mis-remembered that).

Hi Bridewell
there was a later dicrepency (or confusion) on who schwartz said the yell of Lipski was directed at -him or perhaps pipemen. There was no doubt that BS man yelled it though.

and Abberline pretty much cleared that up anyway.

[Joshua Rogan]

I don't have my copy of "The Ultimate" to hand, but were there not two versions of the Schwartz account - the one he gave the private investigators or whatever they were and that given to the police? I thought there was some discrepancy between the two accounts as to who had shouted 'Lipski'? (Apologies if I've mis-remembered that).

Yes, the Star 1st Oct account of the story has "Pipeman" rushing at Schwartz with a knife and "shouting out some sort of warning" to the man attacking Stride. Whereas in Swanson's report he has "the man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski'... Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other"

Abberline says "I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say" and therefore, it seems, the police concluded that it was aimed by Liz' attacker at Schwartz himself.

[Sam Flynn]

I read here somewhere that snitches had their faces cut to let others know what happens to them.

Mary Kelly must have been an über-snitch, then