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  • #76
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Schwartz said that it was BSM who uttered the cry.
    re-Read my post Sam, that's what I said. I'm asking whether its possible though that Israel saw the scuffle, but that Liz squealed "Lipski" instead of BSM. Ive always wondered whether Israel actually did see something.... inside the gates, perhaps as he left the club via the side door,... and chose or was asked to modify a few elements of that story to take heat off the club as a possible source of the killer.

    He had all day to get the story "right" after all.
    Michael Richards

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
      re-Read my post Sam, that's what I said.
      I know what you meant, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clearly to have seen/heard BSM call out "Lipski!" to pipeman. Stride had already been thrown to the ground at this point, and it's unlikely that Schwartz would have mistaken a male voice calling out from a standing position with that of a woman on the floor.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        I know what you meant, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clearly to have seen/heard BSM call out "Lipski!" to pipeman. Stride had already been thrown to the ground at this point, and it's unlikely that Schwartz would have mistaken a male voice calling out from a standing position with that of a woman on the floor.
        of course he wouldn't Sam. MR is going with the conspiracy nonsense again.

        and chose or was asked to modify a few elements of that story to take heat off the club as a possible source of the killer.

        He had all day to get the story "right" after all.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          re-Read my post Sam, that's what I said. I'm asking whether its possible though that Israel saw the scuffle, but that Liz squealed "Lipski" instead of BSM. Ive always wondered whether Israel actually did see something.... inside the gates, perhaps as he left the club via the side door,... and chose or was asked to modify a few elements of that story to take heat off the club as a possible source of the killer.

          He had all day to get the story "right" after all.
          Wouldn't the greater risk to the continued existence of the club come from a cover-up? Okay so (if there was indeed a cover-up) they got away with it, but they couldn't have known in advance that that would be the case. If they'd identified the killer and denounced him, surely that could only be to their credit (except to the ant-Semitic - but they're never going to be won over, no matter what you do).
          "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            I know what you meant, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clearly to have seen/heard BSM call out "Lipski!" to pipeman. Stride had already been thrown to the ground at this point, and it's unlikely that Schwartz would have mistaken a male voice calling out from a standing position with that of a woman on the floor.
            I don't have my copy of "The Ultimate" to hand, but were there not two versions of the Schwartz account - the one he gave the private investigators or whatever they were and that given to the police? I thought there was some discrepancy between the two accounts as to who had shouted 'Lipski'? (Apologies if I've mis-remembered that).
            "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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            • #81
              There may have been some discrepancies, Mike, but Schwartz seems quite clear that the cry came from a man.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                There are cases where we have seen victims faces marked and in some of those cases the marks were intentional and intended to label the victim. I read here somewhere that snitches had their faces cut to let others know what happens to them. It would seem, if the story that Kate was going to go to the authorities with a name is real, then she might be considered a "snitch" by some.
                I thought this was interesting...as I recall, snitches used to have their noses cut off (no more nosiness) and/or their tongues removed (no more grassing)...

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                  I don't have my copy of "The Ultimate" to hand, but were there not two versions of the Schwartz account - the one he gave the private investigators or whatever they were and that given to the police? I thought there was some discrepancy between the two accounts as to who had shouted 'Lipski'? (Apologies if I've mis-remembered that).
                  Hi Bridewell
                  there was a later dicrepency (or confusion) on who schwartz said the yell of Lipski was directed at -him or perhaps pipemen. There was no doubt that BS man yelled it though.

                  and Abberline pretty much cleared that up anyway.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                    I don't have my copy of "The Ultimate" to hand, but were there not two versions of the Schwartz account - the one he gave the private investigators or whatever they were and that given to the police? I thought there was some discrepancy between the two accounts as to who had shouted 'Lipski'? (Apologies if I've mis-remembered that).
                    Yes, the Star 1st Oct account of the story has "Pipeman" rushing at Schwartz with a knife and "shouting out some sort of warning" to the man attacking Stride. Whereas in Swanson's report he has "the man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski'... Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other"

                    Abberline says "I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say" and therefore, it seems, the police concluded that it was aimed by Liz' attacker at Schwartz himself.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      I read here somewhere that snitches had their faces cut to let others know what happens to them.
                      Mary Kelly must have been an über-snitch, then
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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