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Eddowes V-shape wounds are scissors I think

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  • Eddowes V-shape wounds are scissors I think

    I think Eddowes has had her face attacked by a pair of scissors. The V shapes aren't depressions of a knife. It's a sharp pair of scissors clipping downwards from above her head. I think JtR brought scissors to make it easier for him to get through their clothing and is using them also to disfigure them.
    Bona fide canonical and then some.

  • #2
    Reckon he used a surgical knife to mark the Maxillary sinuses.
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Batman View Post
      I think Eddowes has had her face attacked by a pair of scissors. The V shapes aren't depressions of a knife
      Yes they are. The inverted "V" shapes were described as being cause by "a cut which peeled up the skin forming a triangular flap". Scissors don't "peel up", they pinch or cut. In contrast, a knife slid through a curved surface - such as that of an orange, apple, potato or a human cheek - will indeed "peel up the skin" and leave a triangular flap. The flap won't have a perfectly sharp vertex, but the overall shape will be triangular, as the cut will be wider at the end than at its commencement, owing to the curvature of the orange/apple/.../cheekbone beneath.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by DJA View Post
        Reckon he used a surgical knife to mark the Maxillary sinuses.
        I think that appears to be the only knife wound to her face. I think the rest was done with scissors, including the bridge above the nose.

        Scissors makes sense because in the dark he is hardly getting those V shapes right by slicing which is not so likely in darkness and certainly time consuming which why it was always assumed it just by knife depression. Yet scissor snips isn't time-consuming and he doesn't have to worry about alignment of the sides of the V to a point.
        Bona fide canonical and then some.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          ... being cause by "a cut which peeled up the skin forming a triangular flap". Scissors don't "peel up", .
          That's not the pathological meaning of peeling skin. Here it would just mean damage to the skin as a result of something unintentional causing it or as a direct result of something else, which would be the shape of the incisions around it. Basically, the flap is the peeling of the epidermis. Which is just one layer.
          Bona fide canonical and then some.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            Yes they are. The inverted "V" shapes were described as being cause by "a cut which peeled up the skin forming a triangular flap". Scissors don't "peel up", they pinch or cut. In contrast, a knife slid through a curved surface - such as that of an orange, apple, potato or a human cheek - will indeed "peel up the skin" and leave a triangular flap. The flap won't have a perfectly sharp vertex, but the overall shape will be triangular, as the cut will be wider at the end than at its commencement, owing to the curvature of the orange/apple/.../cheekbone beneath.
            I think you need to put this to the test. I cannot see how one cut or slice with a knife in the course of the attack would result in V formations and flaps. Especially as they were on both sides of the face, to me they look as though they were done by design, and if that be the case the killer would have had to be very artistic and skillful with the knife in almost total darkness, and of course we get back to the max time the killer would have had with the victim to be able to have done all he is alleged to have done

            The more he is purported to have done the more time it would have taken !

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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            • #7
              Also, it doesn't look like he used the same instrument on her face at all.

              As pointed out the right side of his face the Maxillary sinuses are deeply slashed through.

              To believe it's the same instrument one would believe that he is alternating the pressure behind each cut. I think he just switched instrument. I wonder if he brought the scissors to take away a piece of clothing deliberately. Even as a souvenir.
              Bona fide canonical and then some.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Batman View Post
                That's not the pathological meaning of peeling skin
                I don't think there is a pathological meaning to describing something as a "peeled up flap", is there?
                Basically, the flap is the peeling of the epidermis. Which is just one layer.
                I know, which is why I wrote about the production of a triangular shaped flap if one slices a knife through the skin of something stretched over a curved surface, like a potato etc.

                In order to use a scissors to inflict those wounds, the killer would have had to face Eddowes' feet, positioned the heel of his hand at the level of her forehead with the scissors pointing "south", snipping through one cheek before repeating the operation on the other side. Why on earth would he do such a thing?
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                  I think you need to put this to the test. I cannot see how one cut or slice with a knife in the course of the attack would result in V formations and flaps.
                  Thanks, Trevor, but I've said all I need to say about the inverted "V" wounds in a Ripperologist article years ago, and I see no reason to revise my position on them. So, instead of elaborating in words, I'll let a picture do the talking for me:

                  Click image for larger version

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                  That inverted "V" could obviously have been produced by a single downward slice, as it most certainly was.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                  • #10
                    I think Jon Smythe (Wickerman) solved the riddle of the "inverted V:s" a long time ago. Before Eddowes´ nosetip was sliced off, a botched attempt was made further up the bridge of the nose. At that stage, the killer could only cut to a certain depth before the blade struck bone. And as he did this, the knife travelled into the cheek flesh on either side, forming the flaps we see - that are more of U:s than V:s, by the way.

                    Look at post 69 here, and you will see what I mean:

                    https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1338&page=7

                    So no scissors.
                    Last edited by Fisherman; 10-08-2018, 08:49 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Thanks, Trevor, but I've said all I need to say about the inverted "V" wounds in a Ripperologist article years ago, and I see no reason to revise my position on them. So, instead of elaborating in words, I'll let a picture do the talking for me:

                      [ATTACH]18829[/ATTACH]

                      That inverted "V" could obviously have been produced by a single downward slice, as it most certainly was.
                      Sam
                      I disagree that pic doesnt show an inverted V. I agree on a single downward slice, and I have maintained all along that many of the wounds to her face were as a direct result of her struggling to move her face and neck away from the killer wielding the knife. The angle of the cuts to the face corroborate that in my opinion.

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                        I think Jon Smythe (Wickerman) solved the riddle of the "inverted V:s" a long time ago
                        Jon and I arrived at our conclusions independently, although I didn't twig that the infliction of the wounds might have coincided with the attempted cutting off of the nose - that ingenious suggestion was entirely Jon's. However, we both maintained that the wounds were an accidental byproduct of a slicing action of the knife, and not deliberately written/drawn on the skin.

                        For those who haven't read it, my dissertation - which covers a lot more than the cheek wounds - can be found here on Casebook:

                        https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...or-design.html
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                          Sam
                          I disagree that pic doesnt show an inverted V.
                          Let's be clear, Dr Brown described "triangular flaps of skin", which is precisely what we've got there. Subsequent folklore has turned these wounds into "V" shapes.
                          I agree on a single downward slice
                          Thanks, Trevor.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            Jon and I arrived at our conclusions independently, although I didn't twig that the infliction of the wounds might have coincided with the attempted cutting off of the nose - that ingenious suggestion was entirely Jon's. However, we both maintained that the wounds were an accidental byproduct of a slicing action of the knife, and not deliberately written/drawn on the skin.

                            For those who haven't read it, my dissertation - which covers a lot more than the cheek wounds - can be found here on Casebook:

                            https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...or-design.html
                            All credit to your own good self also of course, Gareth - I remembered Jons contribution because I concur with you that it is an ingenious one.

                            As for your dissertation, it is a good one that I have often read - but I find myself more and more convinced nowadays that very little of the damage done was accidental.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              As for your dissertation, it is a good one that I have often read - but I find myself more and more convinced nowadays that very little of the damage done was accidental.
                              Well, it was all deliberate, I guess, in that he intended to inflict damage. But there was no "grand design" in any of it as far as I can see. I seem to remember writing that article in response to a number of discussions about the "clown's mask" and various attempts to read symbolism into the wounds - stuff which I refuted then, and still do now.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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