Annie's last meal

[Fleetwood Mac]

But Dr Brown did Kate's autopsy, not Phillips. We know what "farinaceous" means because it's in the dictionary. It relates to starchy foods such as bread and potatoes.

This is what Dr Phillips had to say at the Liz Stride inquest/post-mortem in relation to her stomach contents:

Partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles

Do you see the clear distinction made by Dr Phillips? Potato. Farinaceous edibles.

This really should be the end of it, but I'd imagine not.

You're attempting to draw a parallel between Annie and Catherine. You can't. Catherine did not eat what Annie ate at 1.45am and Catherine had a chronic kidney disease which disrupts digestion.

Go with whatever you think.

[DJA]

Surely it’s unlikely that she would have been given food at the station? Wouldnt the station sergeant who discharged her have said so in his evidence at the inquest? Instead he testified that "nothing was given to her" while she was in her cell. Hutt testified that he brought her out of her cell at 12:58am, then she had a brief conversation with the sergeant, then was discharged at "Just on 1". No mention of any free "supper" being provided at the odd time of 1am. So, on the known facts, it’s unlikely?

Constable George Henry Hutt, 968, City Police: I am gaoler at Bishopsgate station. On the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, at a quarter to ten o'clock, I took over our prisoners, among them the deceased. I visited her several times until five minutes to one on Sunday morning. The inspector, being out visiting, I was directed by Sergeant Byfield to see if any of the prisoners were fit to be discharged. I found the deceased sober, and after she had given her name and address, she was allowed to leave. I pushed open the swing-door leading to the passage, and said, "This way, missus." She passed along the passage to the outer door. I said to her, "Please, pull it to." She replied, "All right. Good night, old ****." (Laughter.) She pulled the door to within a foot of being close, and I saw her turn to the left.
The Coroner: That was leading towards Houndsditch? - Yes.
The Foreman: Is it left to you to decide when a prisoner is sober enough to be released or not? - Not to me, but to the inspector or acting inspector on duty.
[Coroner] Is it usual to discharge prisoners who have been locked up for being drunk at all hours of the night? - Certainly.
[Coroner] How often did you visit the prisoners? - About every half-hour. At first the deceased remained asleep; but at a quarter to twelve she was awake, and singing a song to herself, as it were. I went to her again at half-past twelve, and she then asked when she would be able to get out. I replied: "Shortly." She said, "I am capable of taking care of myself now."
Mr. Crawford: Did she tell you where she was going? - No. About two minutes to one o'clock, when I was taking her out of the cell, she asked me what time it was. I answered, "Too late for you to get any more drink." She said, "Well, what time is it?" I replied, "Just on one." Thereupon she said, "I shall get a ---- fine hiding when I get home, then."
[Coroner] Was that her parting remark? - That was in the station yard. I said, "Serve you right; you have no right to get drunk."
[Coroner] You supposed she was going home? - I did.
[Coroner] In your opinion is that the apron the deceased was wearing? - To the best of my belief it is.
[Coroner] What is the distance from Mitre-square to your station? - About 400 yards.
[Coroner] Do you know the direct route to Flower and Dean-street? - No.
A Juror: Do you search persons who are brought in for drunkenness? - No, but we take from them anything that might be dangerous. I loosened the things round the deceased's neck, and I then saw a white wrapper and a red silk handkerchief.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Jeff,

That's the answer. I couldn't make head nor tail of what you were saying.

Cathy spent four and a half hours in jail. We don't know how long before her incarceration she had eaten, but I imagine she would have been far more hungry than Annie was after she had polished off two or more potatoes. Cathy had sold her husband's shoes and was drinking so she likely had a penny for some chips or a potato. If she bought and consumed some sort of potato product immediately after her release it would be at least half digested at her time of death. I see this as a likely scenario, what do you think?

Best regards, George

Hello George,

Catherine was paralytic though so would she have had any money left for chips? Would there have been anyone selling chips at that time of the morning in the Square Mile?

Basically though it’s being suggested that it’s possible that poverty-stricken Catherine found, bought and ate food within around 30-40 minutes of leaving the station after being on a bender and yet it’s somehow unlikely that Annie could have eaten in the 3 and half hours gap.

As we don’t know what food was found in Annie’s stomach isn’t it at least a possibility that she might have eaten something a couple of hours prior to her potato and that was what was in her stomach. Either way, there are just too many unknowns to draw any grounded conclusions.

Neither can be proven or disproven so I don’t see what can be achieved on this thread tbo George.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Surely it’s unlikely that she would have been given food at the station? Wouldnt the station sergeant who discharged her have said so in his evidence at the inquest? Instead he testified that "nothing was given to her" while she was in her cell. Hutt testified that he brought her out of her cell at 12:58am, then she had a brief conversation with the sergeant, then was discharged at "Just on 1". No mention of any free "supper" being provided at the odd time of 1am. So, on the known facts, it’s unlikely?

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is what Dr Phillips had to say at the Liz Stride inquest/post-mortem in relation to her stomach contents:

Partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles

Do you see the clear distinction made by Dr Phillips? Potato. Farinaceous edibles.

This really should be the end of it, but I'd imagine not.

You're attempting to draw a parallel between Annie and Catherine. You can't. Catherine did not eat what Annie ate at 1.45am and Catherine had a chronic kidney disease which disrupts digestion.

But Dr Brown did Kate's autopsy, not Phillips. We know what "farinaceous" means because it's in the dictionary. It relates to starchy foods such as bread and potatoes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

"Bread made from potatoes", not "a potato" or "potatoes". Your quote is not talking of what Annie consumed, although you're painfully attempting to draw a parallel.

This bread includes other ingredients, e.g. wheat.

You have a doctor who examines Mary's stomach contents and refers to potatoes as potatoes, not farinaceous food. There is a precedent for you among the medical men.

Catherine had a chronic kidney disease also which disrupts digestion.

Let's recap, you're using Catherine's stomach contents to suggest a comparison can be drawn with Annie's meal of potatoes at 1.45am.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

You've just read it wrong. Look at the comma. It"s saying that farinaceous ailments include bread (made from grain), potatoes and other roots.

This is basic English, mate. You are letting yourself down.

You are also wrong in saying that I am comparing Catherine's stomach with Annie's meal of potatoes. Dr Phillip's didn't mention potatoes so we don't know what that food was.

If, as you believe, Kate had eaten bread more than 5 hours before she was murdered, why couldn't Annie have eaten bread shortly after midnight on 8th September, that being the food in her stomach?

[DJA]

"I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped."

This was Eddowes' autopsy.

Seems likely she was given a cup of gruel for supper before discharge.

[Fleetwood Mac]

From The Edinburgh Review, 1828:

"The next great division of food includes the farinaceous aliments - and particularly the various sorts of bread, made from grain, potatoes, and some other roots of a similar description. "

From the NHS website:

"Starchy foods - such as potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, and cereals - should make up just over a third of the food you eat".

This is what Dr Phillips had to say at the Liz Stride inquest/post-mortem in relation to her stomach contents:

Partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles

Do you see the clear distinction made by Dr Phillips? Potato. Farinaceous edibles.

This really should be the end of it, but I'd imagine not.

You're attempting to draw a parallel between Annie and Catherine. You can't. Catherine did not eat what Annie ate at 1.45am and Catherine had a chronic kidney disease which disrupts digestion.

[Fleetwood Mac]

From The Edinburgh Review, 1828:

"The next great division of food includes the farinaceous aliments - and particularly the various sorts of bread, made from grain, potatoes, and some other roots of a similar description. "

"Bread made from potatoes", not "a potato" or "potatoes". Your quote is not talking of what Annie consumed, although you're painfully attempting to draw a parallel.

This bread includes other ingredients, e.g. wheat.

You have a doctor who examines Mary's stomach contents and refers to potatoes as potatoes, not farinaceous food. There is a precedent for you among the medical men.

Catherine had a chronic kidney disease also which disrupts digestion.

Let's recap, you're using Catherine's stomach contents to suggest a comparison can be drawn with Annie's meal of potatoes at 1.45am.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Herlock Sholmes]

From The Edinburgh Review, 1828:

"The next great division of food includes the farinaceous aliments - and particularly the various sorts of bread, made from grain, potatoes, and some other roots of a similar description. "

From the NHS website:

"Starchy foods - such as potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, and cereals - should make up just over a third of the food you eat".

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's the point you were making to support your argument.

It turns out, one is easily digestible food and the other isn't.

For a reference point, see Dr Phillips' testimony. He referred to the potatoes in Mary's stomach as "potatoes" as opposed to "farinaceous food". Logically it follows that "farinaceous food" is in line with its meaning: flour-based.

Your logic is ridiculous. It was a different doctor. Bond in the case of Kelly, not Phillips. All it means is that Brown wasn't able to precisely identify the food in Kate"s stomach. By your own logic Annie couldn't have had a potato in her stomach because Phillips didn't say so.

In the event you no longer think it matters then you no longer have a point to support your original argument, which was: the food eaten was similar and therefore we can draw a conclusion on the digestive process timeframe.

I've never said that the food eaten "was similar". Once again you are imagining things. All we know is that the food in Kate's stomach was of an unidentifiable starchy nature. We don't know from the post-mortem what the food found in Annie's stomach was. If Kate ate her meal prior to 8pm it simply proves that food can remain in the stomach for over 5 hours. This means there is no surprise if food remained in Annie's stomach less than 4 hours after she last ate.

Which is not what Dr Brown stated at the inquest/post-mortem. You've made this up.

It's literally what he said. Please don't accuse me of making up evidence. I"ve quoted Dr Brown's evidence which is self-explanatory.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Ha ha No wonder, I missed the point where things switched to Kate. My mistake

- Jeff

Feel free to expand upon what you're saying, Jeff. As I said, I've no idea what point you were making: this happens.

In the end, Sherlock presented Dr Brown's statement as this:

"There was starchy food partly digested in Catherine's stomach."

He attempted to embed this manipulation of Dr Brown's statement, but that's not what Dr Brown said at all.

Dr Brown stated:

I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped.

As explained to you, "farinaceous" is a Latin term which broadly translates into "made from flour or meal".

These days, the term is now used to incorporate anything starchy.

You have a precedent from another medical man, Dr Phillips, who stated there were potatoes in Mary's stomach, as opposed to "farinaceous food". This should tell you that the medical men of the day did not mean potatoes when they stated: "farinaceous food".

Assuming this was wholewheat bread, and there's a decent chance, the human stomach doesn't fully digest wheat because we only have one stomach to fully break down it down, unlike say or cows or sheep. The undigested portions ferment.

In addition, Catherine had Bright's disease or what is known today as nephritis, a chronic kidney disease. Here is a link to a study for you (there are many more):

Patients with chronic kidney disease have abnormal upper gastro-intestinal tract digestive function: A study of uremic enteropathy - PubMed (nih.gov)

It states:

Chronic kidney disease was associated with dysmotility............reflecting abnormal digestive secretion and absorption.......chronic kidney disease adversely affects digestive function.

Conclusion to all of this:

Catherine could quite conceivably have eaten prior to being locked up and there remain: from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped.

[GBinOz]

Ha ha No wonder, I missed the point where things switched to Kate. My mistake

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

That's the answer. I couldn't make head nor tail of what you were saying.

Cathy spent four and a half hours in jail. We don't know how long before her incarceration she had eaten, but I imagine she would have been far more hungry than Annie was after she had polished off two or more potatoes. Cathy had sold her husband's shoes and was drinking so she likely had a penny for some chips or a potato. If she bought and consumed some sort of potato product immediately after her release it would be at least half digested at her time of death. I see this as a likely scenario, what do you think?

Best regards, George

[JeffHamm]

I've no idea what your point is in relation to the previous posts.

Ha ha No wonder, I missed the point where things switched to Kate. My mistake

- Jeff

[DJA]

Here's a simple recipe for flour gruel:

2 teaspoons of flour
1 teaspoon of salt

Boil one cup water. Separately, drip water on flour and salt until it makes a paste. Add the paste to the boiling water. Stir to a semi-fluid consistency. Strain to eliminate film. Serve warm.