Time Factor

[lynn cates]

negligible

Hello Dave. In looking at the distance between the steps and fence, it was negligible.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

However, when the body is discovered it isn't lodged against the fencing at all...it is parallel to the fencing...does anyone know for sure how far from the fencing it actually is? If there's any significant distance, then surely Cadosche's testimony is at least somewhat devalued?

I always assumed the killed repositioned her for access to the, umm, places he wanted, while maintaining the cover of the shadow.

However, if what Cadosche heard was the killer bumping the fence as he ran away, does that push the TOD back a quarter of an hour or so? After all, the Phillips discrepancy is only an hour, and he admitted he could be wrong.

Who was the first person to suggest that Cadosche heard the body hit the fence? Was he asked if he heard or saw anything before he was aware of the murder, or, at least exactly where the body was found, so that he said "I heard something bump against the fence," or did he already know about the body on the other side when he was first interviewed, and say "I heard the body hit the fence"?

People tend to reinterpret and reform memories based on new knowledge, which is why I would love to know just what the witnesses in the MJK case knew when they offered information.

[Cogidubnus]

We hear a lot about how Cadosche heard the fence at No 29 struck by an object...(did he also see or sense it tremble?)...we are led to believe that this was Annie Chapman's demise and fall...

However, when the body is discovered it isn't lodged against the fencing at all...it is parallel to the fencing...does anyone know for sure how far from the fencing it actually is? If there's any significant distance, then surely Cadosche's testimony is at least somewhat devalued?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

strike pattern

Hello Chava.

"I'd love to know how it strikes the quarters. Whether it sounds the same strike for each or whether it increases the strike for the half and the three-quarter."

My university clock has a strike pattern identical to Big Ben. Still, through inattention, I have been off by 30 minutes.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Ok , the thing is with the timing issue's , Long turns into Hanbury street just as Cadosh leaves for work ??? a fact that both Long and Cadosh swear to ..

I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street.

Coroner] You are certain about the time? - Quite.

At which time Cadosh leaves for work ( couple mins walk to Spitalfields Church)

I then went into the house, and from there into the street to go to my work. It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church.

No time dilemma so far ? the time dilemma jumps into play when we try to force Cadosh into hearing the murder and Long passing Annie and her killer.

And baring in mind that neither Long nor Cadosh paid either happening much attention at the time !
Cadosh..

I was thinking about my work, and not that there was anything the matter, otherwise most likely I would have been curious enough to look over.

Long ...

that is why I did not take much notice of them.

It really is only when we try to squeeze Cadosh and Long into the murder frame the picture becomes distorted .

If we just look at the possibility that long did not see Annie and Cadosh did not hear the murder take place , it may just all fit into place very easy .. they both swear that they heard and saw something that morning , but WAS IT the Killer and the actual Murder that they witnessed ! Alternatively ,
Dr Phillips TOD sits comfortable , and in line with the very similar conditions surrounding the Mitre sq murder .. Loss of blood , cold pavement , cold air temp , removed organs , struggle , (ect) and all the timing issues surrounding the whole who saw/heard what & when, malarkey seem to disappear .

moonbegger .



moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

Chav ,

(Edited to reflect the following post.)

I was just trying pass on some information which you Seemed to be unaware of ! Really no need to get your knickers in a twist ol c**k

Riv ,

I do rather like your idea of Annie being Strangled in the yard, then operated on with a time laps in between .. As if disturbed by Richardson ?

cheers

moonbegger .

[Wickerman]

Hello Chava,



Stephen Knight .

Truth was not his principal interest.

Carrying a rather large framed body through that narrow passage, stumbling and scuffing, bumping and banging against those old wooden partitions, would make enough noise to waken the dead...

Regards, Jon S.

[Chava]

The Phillips ToD is difficult to explain away. However as you point out, many factors affect the temperature and appearance of a body. Chapman's state of health, her position on what I am prepared to bet was damp, bare earth, the devastating nature of the blood-loss from the event, all these can explain a death that might at first sight appear to have been committed a while before it did actually happen.

The appearance of weak arterial blood-spray on the fence in an appropriate juxtaposition to the body suggests that the poor woman was alive when she lay there.

[RivkahChaya]

Body dump accounts for the body falling against the fence when Cadosche heard something, and Phillips TOD being correct. Not sure where Long fits in.

I am not in the "Phillips is correct" corner, however, I was not suggesting Chapman was killed and mutilated somewhere else, just killed, maybe even by suffocation, then carried or dragged to a secluded place, and the ripping occurred there. Just to be clear.

I think she was killed where she was, clocks not being perfect can reconcile Long and Cadosche's evidence, and Phillips was just off. An hour might seem like a lot to be off with the body that fresh, but it can happen. It happened in a case in the 1970s, in the US, in which the medical examiner didn't go to the site, and didn't realize the body was on damp, bare earth, which is a heat suck. He was off on the time of death by about 12 hours with a body that was discovered about 36 hours after death. The case broke 20 years later, when the killer joined AA, and confessed, as part of making amends for past wrongs.

[moonbegger]

Hello Chava,

I've never heard of anyone suggesting that Chapman had been dumped.

Stephen Knight .

[Chava]

If the small time frame is the main argument for a dump over being killed in situ, I don't think there's much question that she was killed where she was.

I've never heard of anyone credible suggesting that Chapman had been dumped. Slight arterial blood spatter on the fence beside the body, the quantity of blood around the corpse and the position of the corpse all seem to confirm a murder in situ.
(Edited to reflect the following post.)

[Chava]

First of all I'd like to know how many clocks were striking the quarters in that area at that time. Spitalfields Church has a gorgeous clock and I imagine that one chimed as well. The brewery clock is off Brick Lane and that brewery as far as I know still stands. So it's possible that Long heard the wrong clock, which may have struck the quarters differently, and misinterpreted the time.

I've looked up the route she probably took, and at the time she's heading for Hanbury Street she is pretty much equidistant from both clocks. Since the brewery clock is still around, I'd love to know how it strikes the quarters. Whether it sounds the same strike for each or whether it increases the strike for the half and the three-quarter. Come to think of it Christchurch Spitalfield's clock is still there as well. Any Londoners care to make the trip to check them out?

[moonbegger]

Hello Bridewell ,

So you're prepared to accept that Mrs Long did get the day right then?

No ! not DID , but she may have , without undeniable proof, all things are possible .

the one thing we know did fall against that fence on that morning - the body of Annie Chapman.

I did not know that was a certainty .. but again it is a possibility , there really are other alternatives ( maybe not a multitude )

Bagster Phillips accepted that he could have been in error.

Yes indeed he could have been , (and i thank you for the wealth of information pertaining to rigor mortis) but then again , he could have been spot on with his two or more hours TOD .

There has to be an awful lot of error in the combined evidence of Cadosch and Long for Bagster Phillips to be right. For Cadosch and Long to be right there need only be an error of 50 minutes to an hour in Bagster Phillips' estimate of the TOD.

The thing is for me , Bridewell , for Cadosh and Long to be right , one of them has to be wrong, as well as Phillips being wrong , not to mention the times being wrong .. but if Phillips is right .. that still leaves the door open for Cadosh to hear something , and Long to see some people . The only difference being they are hearing and seeing something not related to the actual murder of Annie .

You may be right. Of course you may be right, but it's nothing like a certainty

Ditto .

moonbegger

[RivkahChaya]

Do we have an idea of how much Annie Chapman weighed?

If she was very short, but stout, she would have been awkward to carry into position for a body dump (I'm not in favor of a body dump, I'm just trying to think the thing through). A tallish, slender, light woman, not in rigor, or out of it, one might manage to prop up, and make to look as though she is walking with you, but drunk, or something. It'd be harder to pull off with someone short and stout, especially someone very stout and heavy. I knew an overweight woman who was only 5'2, but still weighted 235lbs. She was in a wheelchair, and had lupus, so she took steroids, and had joint problems that made exercising mostly out of the question, but you can get to that mass without much height.

So hefting Chapman in a fireman's carry, or putting her in a sack seems to be where we end up, and that sounds conspicuous, not to mention, it would make arranging her after the dump probably more work than it would take jut to kill her right there.

If the small time frame is the main argument for a dump over being killed in situ, I don't think there's much question that she was killed where she was.

[Wickerman]

Following up on an earlier point, Cadosch said that, when he left the house he "did not see any man or woman in Hanbury-street. He did not see Mrs Long". Does he mean he didn't notice anyone or that, categorically, they weren't there? Personally I think either is possible.

Hi Colin.

You are reading the Times

In the Daily Telegraph the wording is, not surprisingly, a little different.

"...I did not see any man and woman in the street when I went out. "

Its almost like Cadoche was responding to a specific question concerning a couple (man and woman), which Mrs Long had claimed she saw at 5:30.
The reasoning is sound because about 5:30 would be when Cadoche would be leaving his door on his way out. So yes, the Coroner might have asked him if he saw this man & woman seen by Mrs Long, or any other couple nearby.

With that in mind, the Times has him claiming to not seeing this couple, nor Mrs Long. He is probably talking specifically. There may have been people along the street, but no-one he could identify as those people they are talking about. The market was about to open so it is logical that people would be about at this time.

Regards, Jon S.