Time Factor

[Michael W Richards]

When it comes to sussing out between Cadosche and Long, I think its best to side with the person who says he heard a voice and a thud coming from the murder site itself rather than someone who estimated her time and saw someone at another location.

There isnt a swinging door to the front of the house leading to a long hallway that allows for traffic coming and going all through the night, .... in fact we hear people were sleeping in the yard before, which suggest trysting wasnt going on at the time.

The odds are that perhaps only Annie and her killer were in that yard that night, which would make the soft "no" heard by Cadosche, Annie last words.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello MB. Thanks.

The sequence of her being taken down would have been this. (Assuming, of course, that I am right about Isenschmid.)

1. They are talking loudly outside of #29 (JI wants money; Annie does not understand and she thinks she is to receive money for her "services.") [add Mrs. Long]

2. She leads him through the passage to the back.

3. He asks again for money; she realises what he is about and says, "No." [add Cadosch #1--after trip #1 to commode]

4. Being delusional, he thinks she is Mary and he seizes her; she hits him twice on forehead and eye. [Isenschmid was described 4 days later as having a bruise on forehead and a black eye.]

5. He begins strangulation.

6. She struggles mightily to free herself. Her left hand, on which she has two rings, is employed to get him to release. Her efforts cause her nails to dig into the left side of her neck.

7. As she struggles, he sees the rings thinking they are valuable.

8. In about three minutes she is about to pass out from the struggle and strangulation. [add Cadosch #2--after trip #2 to commode.]

9. She falls against fence. This is heard by Cadosch.

10. He removes rings and slits open her pocket for more cheap jewelry. [No blood on these.]

11. His delusion is now a sheep at his feet.

12. He cuts throat once to bleed; a second time in a two step, but furtive, effort to decapitate.

13. He disembowels.

14. He heads to market to sell the "head" and "sheep entrails."

Regarding your final question:

"So Long leaves home a 5am and gets to the market at 5.32ish."

5.32ish? No, no. She fixes THAT time by her previous erroneous estimate at #29 Hanbury.

It's all quite simple--once we divest ourselves of all that "JTR" rot.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello Lynn ,

"So bearing in mind Dr Phillips point , that Annie was killed on the ground and a struggle took place .. Are we to assume that there would be no sound of a struggle , or a fight for life that Cadosh would have heard , right under his nose?"

That fight took place whilst Albert was in the WC--no problem.

Ok Lynn , Are you are suggesting that Cadosh's "Fall against fence" was the after result of the struggle , when Annie was already on the ground fighting for her life , maybe already dead ? In which case the fall against the fence could be the killer getting into position between Annie and the fence .. or even maybe some blackguard crouching down to steel the rings off an already dead Annie ? I could see how either malarkey could play out . What hand was the rings torn off ?

"Long may have misheard the clock and walked to market a full 15 mins longer than usual"

Actually, this would be required IF she left home at 5.00 and arrived at Hanbury at 5.30.

Or, to put it another way, "Grandma was slow, but she was old."

But is'nt it the suggestion that long heard the (5.15) bell as opposed to the (5.30) bell . So Long leaves home a 5am and gets to the market at 5.32ish . So (A) Would it take Long 17 mins to walk the short distance From #29 to the market ? Even for Grandma ! (B) She was Quite sure of her timing, and she made no startling realisation that her timings ( that she was well used to ) did not quite add up .. She knew her journey and how long it usually takes

cheers ,

moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

Mr. Cadosche needs to get his prostate examined.

Regarding the bump against the fence: if Dr. Phillips is correct about the TOD, then what did Cadosche hear? If Phillips is right, someone bumped into the fence right where a body was lying, but apparently did not sound an alarm. If it was an animal, then wouldn't it be unremarkable? Or is Cadosche lying?

Or confabulating. I'm willing to believe that he heard something, and once he knew there was a body on the other side of the fence, suddenly decided he'd heard something fall against the fence right where the body was. People do that, and entirely false memories are surprisingly easy to induce. This is why I'd really love to know how much Cadosche already knew about the murder before he was questioned.

Hello Riv ,

Great post , very intriguing indeed .

[Wickerman]

I'm trying to get to the bottom of your objection Dave. If you think something is not right then please explain.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Not picking a quarrel, but...

Is there something dishonest in those questions Jon?

I thought they were fairly straightforward...I may not have fully understood some of the statements presented, but as far as I'm aware I did not in any sense state or ask anything either obscure or devious...

I merely asked questions, explaining my reasons for doing so, as I went...If I am to be precluded from doing so, I'm afraid I'll need a better reason than Jonny doesn't like it...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Ok Dave, well let me ask you a question.

We hear a lot about how Cadosche heard the fence at No 29 struck by an object...(did he also see or sense it tremble?)...we are led to believe that this was Annie Chapman's demise and fall...

However, when the body is discovered it isn't lodged against the fencing at all...it is parallel to the fencing...

I'm not clear on what you mean by "lodged against the fence".

does anyone know for sure how far from the fencing it actually is? If there's any significant distance, then surely Cadosche's testimony is at least somewhat devalued?

Why?
Her body could be against the fence, or a foot from the fence, it really does not matter.

Looking at the photos, clearly the body couldn't really have literally been both "between the steps and the partition between the yard and the next.

Are you saying, couldn't have been between the steps and the fence (partition)?

Her head was near the house, but no part of the body was against the wall",

Yes, thats "house wall", no part was against the house wall.

and at the same time "Her head was towards the back wall of the house, nearly two feet from the wall, at the bottom of the steps, but six or nine inches away from them"...something's not quite right there

What is not right?

Perhaps if you could explain why you see a problem?

Thanks, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

What do you have up your sleeve?

Regards, Jon S.

At this stage I've nothing up my sleeve barring my arm...I was simply posing an honest question...Tell you what, in future I'll let you know when I'm being tricky...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

surgery

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

Actually, the man had just had surgery.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Granny Long

Hello MB. Thanks.

"So bearing in mind Dr Phillips point , that Annie was killed on the ground and a struggle took place .. Are we to assume that there would be no sound of a struggle , or a fight for life that Cadosh would have heard , right under his nose?"

That fight took place whilst Albert was in the WC--no problem.

"Long may have misheard the clock and walked to market a full 15 mins longer than usual"

Actually, this would be required IF she left home at 5.00 and arrived at Hanbury at 5.30.

Or, to put it another way, "Grandma was slow, but she was old."

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Hello MB. There was about a three minute gap between "No" and the fall. Albert was making a second trip to the water closet.

Mr. Cadosche needs to get his prostate examined.

Regarding the bump against the fence: if Dr. Phillips is correct about the TOD, then what did Cadosche hear? If Phillips is right, someone bumped into the fence right where a body was lying, but apparently did not sound an alarm. If it was an animal, then wouldn't it be unremarkable? Or is Cadosche lying?

Or confabulating. I'm willing to believe that he heard something, and once he knew there was a body on the other side of the fence, suddenly decided he'd heard something fall against the fence right where the body was. People do that, and entirely false memories are surprisingly easy to induce. This is why I'd really love to know how much Cadosche already knew about the murder before he was questioned.

[moonbegger]

Hello Bridewell.

Why does a swift and efficient killing have to involve a violent struggle?

Erm .. Because Dr Phillips tells us it was ..

The face and hands were besmeared with blood, as if she had struggled. She appeared to have been on her back and fought with her hands to free herself. The hands were turned toward her throat. The legs were wide apart, and there were marks of blood upon them.

Unless of course, this is a bit more evidence from a qualified Police surgeon, that we wish to disregard because it does not fit in with what we've been led to believe all these years .

Hello Lynn ,

Hello MB. There was about a three minute gap between "No" and the fall. Albert was making a second trip to the water closet.

So baring in mind Dr Phillips point , that Annie was killed on the ground and a struggle took place .. Are we to assume that there would be no sound of a struggle , or a fight for life that Cadosh would have heard , right under his nose ?

While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29.

No mention of any struggle or movement from Cadosh whilst being literally a foot or so away from the deed ? Is Dr Phillips wrong again ?

Lynn, Bridewell , and all the Longists and Cadoshists I totally respect your stance on the Hanbury street malarkey , and you may well all be 100% correct .. Dr Phillips may well have been wrong with a couple of major opinions , Long may have misheard the clock and walked to market a full 15 mins longer than usual , its is all possible . but there are also a couple of alternatives that are equally as possible .. the world is indeed round , or so they tell me !

cheers ,

moonbegger .

[Wickerman]

Correction.

Either not many people are reading this thread, or not many bought Phil Hutchinson's book. I should have looked through that first.

In the published Whitby Collection there are a series of photo's which clearly show the space between the steps was wide enough for the door to swing back 180 deg, to lay flat against the house wall without hitting the fence.

The photo I posted earlier is deceptive, likely due to the angle. That photo does not appear in the Whitby Collection and was taken at a different time.
However, it can be seen from the sample among the Whitby Collection that Davis was probably correct, "about" three feet is possible. A body could lay comfortably within the space between the steps and the fence, though obviously some small distance away from the house wall.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Just by way of a footnote...

Davis suggested about 3ft between the steps and the fence.

From the photo we can see the door reflects a standard size, about 3ft wide (whether 36-38" is immaterial), therefore the steps are the same width.
The space between the step and the fence is considerably less than the width of the step, so definitely not a 3ft space, and the fence must be in the same location as the property line does not move.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Speculatively, "Nearly two foot from the wall", (thanks Chris!), if actually a reference to the fence, could be suggestive...

Still puzzled

Dave

I must confess Dave, I'm a little puzzled at your question.

Her head was almost certainly between the steps and the fence. In the photo we can see a person could not squeeze their shoulders in that gap so, her right shoulder must have been in front of the bottom step.
Her left shoulder would have been against the bottom of the fence.

Davis said:
There was a little recess on the left. From the steps to the fence is about 3 ft. There are three stone steps, unprotected, leading from the door to the yard, which is at a lower level than that of the passage. Directly I opened the door I saw a woman lying down in the lefthand recess, between the stone steps and the fence.

Chandler said:
Her head was towards the back wall of the house, nearly two feet from the wall, at the bottom of the steps, but six or nine inches away from them............ The body was lying parallel with the fencing dividing the two yards.

Phillips said:
The head was about 6in in front of the level of the bottom step,........On the back wall of the house, between the steps and the palings, on the left side, about 18in from the ground, there were about six patches of blood, varying in size from a sixpenny piece to a small point, and on the wooden fence there were smears of blood, corresponding to where the head of the deceased laid, and immediately above the part where the blood had mainly flowed from the neck, which was well clotted.

Her left shoulder must have been against the fence, if there was any distance then her head would be in front of the steps, not between the steps and the fence, as described. No-one mentions a specific distance likely because there wasn't one.

What do you have up your sleeve?

Regards, Jon S.