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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Rush to Judgement perhaps?

    It always pays the researcher to do a little investigating first, for instance note the date - 13th Sept.
    We know from other published accounts that the Star reporter would leave an inquest before it had ended in order to meet the deadline for the afternoon press.

    As this was the afternoon of the 13th, and it was Day 3 of the inquest, and Dr. Phillips was the last witness, and... his opinion on a time of death was given past half-way through his testimony, it is very likely the reporter missed this part of the doctor's testimony, if not his entire testimony.
    The reporter had also not heard the testimony of Mrs. Long, nor that of Cadosche, who both only gave their evidence on 19th Sept.

    The Star was jumping the gun, as they say. They published a conclusion before hearing all the evidence - but then again, this was only the Star, a paper for whom accuracy was never their call to fame.
    Isnīt this a typical example of shooting the messenger, as the saing goes, Jon...? The ensuing events apparently made the police distrust not only Richardson but specifically Long and Cadosch, when it comes to the likelihood of them having seen or heard the murder.

    I thibk the Star was very much on the money.

    Comment


    • Who decided that the middle step was too low to sit on? This is not true. I'm sat on the second of three very similar steps at this moment and I'm quite comfortable. Easier to reach my boots than from the top step.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
        Who decided that the middle step was too low to sit on? This is not true. I'm sat on the second of three very similar steps at this moment and I'm quite comfortable. Easier to reach my boots than from the top step.
        Well you're certainly not sitting on the fence

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

          I presume you mean 'did mention'.

          A few details of JR's testimony are worth considering...

          MA0913:

          JR: I generally go [to #29] on marke[t] mornings.
          WB: Why on market mornings?
          JR: They are the mornings when I am out early.
          WB: But who is to look after the cellar when it isn't a market morning? -Who is to look after it!
          JR: It looks after itself.

          Is that a reasonable answer?

          I think it is NFN. He’s saying that no one checks the cellar when he doesn’t go.

          JR: I opened it [the back door] and sat on the doorstep and cut a piece of leather off my boot with an old table- knife, about five inches long, which I brought from home. I had been cutting a bit of carrot with it, and brought it along in my left hand coat-pocket. I do not usually put it there, and suppose it must have been a mistake on my part on this occasion.

          Note that the knife arrives at #29 in Richardson's left coat pocket.

          WB: When did you determine to cut something off your boot?
          JR: I had cut some off the previous day, and it hurt my foot, and I found after I left the house that it wanted a bit more to be cut off. I looked to see if the cellar door was all right, and, although I did not go down into the yard, I could see that it was all right. I saw the padlock in its proper place. The sole object I had in going there was to see whether the cellar was all right.

          Richardson leaves his house after carefully tending to the needs of some stray rabbit (he does not indicate that the rabbit is a pet), by cutting up a carrot for it.
          He then accidently puts the knife in his pocket, rather than leaving it at home (presuming this is the location of the rabbit feeding exercise), and then while walking to #29 Hanbury, determines that more leather should come off one of his boots (I guess he had one foot bigger than the other).

          Have you never had one shoe that caused you discomfort? The fault is with the shoe and not the foot.

          Richardson must have realized between that moment - when finding that his foot still hurt in the boot - and reaching the back door, that he had an appropriate implement on him to use for the leather cutting - a blunt table knife.
          This is because the cellar check and boot cutting are completed in a single operation - he does not stand at the door to check the cellar, then allow the door to close, and then, after some seconds or minute, decide to go back to the doorway and sit on the step.

          I think you’re overcomplicating. It’s the whip thing all over again I think. He left the house to go to number 29. After he’d set out he found that his boot hurt too much to put up with so he waited until he got to number 29 because it’s a job done easier when sitting.

          Consider again that the knife arrives in Richardson's left coat pocket.
          There would seem to be two possibilities, as of the moment Richardson reaches the back door.
          Assume that Richardson goes to the back door with the intention to both check the cellar, and cut his boot while sitting on one of the steps.
          Which of the following scenarios is then most likely?...

          One: He sits on the step with the self-closing door pressing against his left side.
          He then fumbles around in-between his left side and the door, to remove the knife from his coat pocket.
          It is not hard to imagine that this would have resulted in the door being momentarily pushed wider than 90°.

          But why wait until seated to remove the knife?

          Two: Standing behind the closed door, Richardson removes the knife from coat pocket with his left hand, and transfers the knife to his right hand.
          He then pushes the door open with his left hand, and holds it open while looking toward the cellar padlock.
          With the knife in his right hand, he then sits down to tend to the boot.

          I can’t see why it’s important.

          All the while any bumps from his left elbow are going to result in the door swinging wider.
          So what causes the door to swing closed of its own accord? Is it a spring, or is the door a little off the horizontal, resulting in gravity doing the work?
          If the latter, then it could be supposed that once the door goes beyond 90° to the rear of the building, it would proceed to swing almost fully open.
          Apparently not the latter though (and therefore a spring must have been installed), because...

          JR: When I had cut the piece of leather off my boot I tied my boot up and went out of the house to the market. I did not close the back door ; it closes itself. I closed the front door.

          So what all this indicates is that Richardson quite possibly stood briefly at the back door, with a knife in his hand.
          Did someone see him at that time? Given the funny rabbit story, and his odd claim to have sat on the middle step, probably 'yes'.

          There’s nothing odd about a man keeping a rabbit. I don’t know if he had kids for example?

          There really is is nothing odd about sitting on a foot high step. I have one in the garden that’s about the same and I occasionally sit on it to smoke my pipe and I’m 6 ft 2.
          But in the earlier post you said that someone did see him.

          If someone had seen a man holding a knife standing on the backdoor step of a yard where a woman had been mutilated why didn’t they come forward? Especially as they would possibly have been able to tell the police “I’ve seen that man there before.”

          Regards

          Herlock




          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Observer View Post

            Well you're certainly not sitting on the fence
            It's a pity Cadoche wasn't doing just that

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              There’s nothing odd about a man keeping a rabbit. I don’t know if he had kids for example?
              A lot of people back then kept them to eat

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                A lot of people back then kept them to eat
                We used to have rabbit stew when I was a kid. Not quite in the eighteen eighties though.
                Regards

                Herlock




                “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                Comment


                • Re #379

                  I think it is NFN. He’s saying that no one checks the cellar when he doesn’t go.

                  Okay, so not even his mother, who we know does go into the cellar (she found his mildewed leather apron there).


                  I think you’re overcomplicating. It’s the whip thing all over again I think. He left the house to go to number 29. After he’d set out he found that his boot hurt too much to put up with so he waited until he got to number 29 because it’s a job done easier when sitting.

                  I'm simply pointing to the coincidence of discovering he needs to remove more leather from the shoe, and then discovering he had put the table knife in his pocket (which he normally does not do).

                  Btw, the 'whip thing' is not an over-complication - it's an analysis. Not analysing the numbers available is negligent.


                  I can’t see why it’s important.

                  You can't see why it's important to know how far open Richardson pushed the door?
                  I thought that was one of the big issues of this thread.

                  Also, I'm raising the possibility that JR stood in the back doorway to observe the cellar padlock, but with knife in hand, and somebody has seen that. Hence all the odd claims. Here's another...

                  John Richardson (recalled) produced the knife - a much-worn dessert knife - with which he had cut his boot. He added that as it was not sharp enough he had borrowed another one at the market.

                  Did JR cut leather off his boot while sitting on the step - yes or no?
                  I can't work this out. Can you?



                  There’s nothing odd about a man keeping a rabbit. I don’t know if he had kids for example?

                  Keeping a rabbit?...

                  JR: I had been feeding a rabbit with a carrot that I had cut up, and I put the knife in my pocket.

                  He does not say 'my rabbit', or 'our rabbit', he says 'a rabbit'. So does he own this rabbit?


                  There really is is nothing odd about sitting on a foot high step. I have one in the garden that’s about the same and I occasionally sit on it to smoke my pipe and I’m 6 ft 2.

                  So am I, but the height of the step is not the main issue - rather it's the awkwardness of not having the door rest against his left thigh.
                  At the middle step, his thighs would be below the level of the bottom of the door, so the self-closing door would be continually bumping against his left arm.
                  Why do this when the left hand is needed to hold the boot or wield the knife?
                  He should have sat on the top step and used his thigh to keep the door in place, but he didn't (or so he says).
                  Was JR trying too hard to prove that he hadn't seen the body? If yes, why? Did he kill Chapman?


                  But in the earlier post you said that someone did see him.

                  What did I then say to contradict that?


                  If someone had seen a man holding a knife standing on the backdoor step of a yard where a woman had been mutilated why didn’t they come forward? Especially as they would possibly have been able to tell the police “I’ve seen that man there before.”

                  What incentive would they have to come forward? This person might prefer 'the quiet life'.
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Tge rabbit is the key to solve this whole problem.

                    Feeding a rabbit at 4 am or so ?!



                    The Baron

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                      Re #379

                      I think it is NFN. He’s saying that no one checks the cellar when he doesn’t go.

                      Okay, so not even his mother, who we know does go into the cellar (she found his mildewed leather apron there).


                      I think you’re overcomplicating. It’s the whip thing all over again I think. He left the house to go to number 29. After he’d set out he found that his boot hurt too much to put up with so he waited until he got to number 29 because it’s a job done easier when sitting.

                      I'm simply pointing to the coincidence of discovering he needs to remove more leather from the shoe, and then discovering he had put the table knife in his pocket (which he normally does not do).

                      Btw, the 'whip thing' is not an over-complication - it's an analysis. Not analysing the numbers available is negligent.


                      I can’t see why it’s important.

                      You can't see why it's important to know how far open Richardson pushed the door?
                      I thought that was one of the big issues of this thread.

                      Also, I'm raising the possibility that JR stood in the back doorway to observe the cellar padlock, but with knife in hand, and somebody has seen that. Hence all the odd claims. Here's another...

                      John Richardson (recalled) produced the knife - a much-worn dessert knife - with which he had cut his boot. He added that as it was not sharp enough he had borrowed another one at the market.

                      Did JR cut leather off his boot while sitting on the step - yes or no?
                      I can't work this out. Can you?



                      There’s nothing odd about a man keeping a rabbit. I don’t know if he had kids for example?

                      Keeping a rabbit?...

                      JR: I had been feeding a rabbit with a carrot that I had cut up, and I put the knife in my pocket.

                      He does not say 'my rabbit', or 'our rabbit', he says 'a rabbit'. So does he own this rabbit?


                      There really is is nothing odd about sitting on a foot high step. I have one in the garden that’s about the same and I occasionally sit on it to smoke my pipe and I’m 6 ft 2.

                      So am I, but the height of the step is not the main issue - rather it's the awkwardness of not having the door rest against his left thigh.
                      At the middle step, his thighs would be below the level of the bottom of the door, so the self-closing door would be continually bumping against his left arm.
                      Why do this when the left hand is needed to hold the boot or wield the knife?
                      He should have sat on the top step and used his thigh to keep the door in place, but he didn't (or so he says).
                      Was JR trying too hard to prove that he hadn't seen the body? If yes, why? Did he kill Chapman?


                      But in the earlier post you said that someone did see him.

                      What did I then say to contradict that?


                      If someone had seen a man holding a knife standing on the backdoor step of a yard where a woman had been mutilated why didn’t they come forward? Especially as they would possibly have been able to tell the police “I’ve seen that man there before.”

                      What incentive would they have to come forward? This person might prefer 'the quiet life'.
                      hi not
                      i agree the whole jr knife, rabbit story is rather odd. one thing i noticed. if the knife he had was unable to cut a piece of leather, would it have been able to cut up a carrot?

                      Not, why do you think someone saw him there with the knife and who is it?
                      Last edited by Abby Normal; 09-24-2020, 01:19 PM.
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by The Baron View Post
                        Tge rabbit is the key to solve this whole problem.

                        Feeding a rabbit at 4 am or so ?!



                        The Baron
                        I struggle to know if you’re being serious or not? He feeds the rabbit before he goes to work rather than leave it all day without food. What’s strange or questionable about this?

                        Its little short of staggering that you’re trying to make an issue of feeding a rabbit in some bizarre attempt to discredit Richardson.

                        Get real Baron.
                        Regards

                        Herlock




                        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                          Re #379

                          I think it is NFN. He’s saying that no one checks the cellar when he doesn’t go.

                          Okay, so not even his mother, who we know does go into the cellar (she found his mildewed leather apron there).

                          She would have seen the cellar door when she got up and began work. Richardson went out of his way to check it And was the only person to do so.


                          I think you’re overcomplicating. It’s the whip thing all over again I think. He left the house to go to number 29. After he’d set out he found that his boot hurt too much to put up with so he waited until he got to number 29 because it’s a job done easier when sitting.

                          I'm simply pointing to the coincidence of discovering he needs to remove more leather from the shoe, and then discovering he had put the table knife in his pocket (which he normally does not do).

                          ok

                          Btw, the 'whip thing' is not an over-complication - it's an analysis. Not analysing the numbers available is negligent.

                          ​​​​​​​ok


                          I can’t see why it’s important.

                          You can't see why it's important to know how far open Richardson pushed the door?
                          I thought that was one of the big issues of this thread.

                          But as we can’t know which pocket he had the knife in we can’t make a judgment based on it.

                          Also, I'm raising the possibility that JR stood in the back doorway to observe the cellar padlock, but with knife in hand, and somebody has seen that. Hence all the odd claims. Here's another...

                          John Richardson (recalled) produced the knife - a much-worn dessert knife - with which he had cut his boot. He added that as it was not sharp enough he had borrowed another one at the market.

                          Did JR cut leather off his boot while sitting on the step - yes or no?
                          I can't work this out. Can you?


                          He said that he did.


                          There’s nothing odd about a man keeping a rabbit. I don’t know if he had kids for example?

                          Keeping a rabbit?...

                          Yes. Rabbits are kept as pets. Why do you think this strange?

                          JR: I had been feeding a rabbit with a carrot that I had cut up, and I put the knife in my pocket.

                          He does not say 'my rabbit', or 'our rabbit', he says 'a rabbit'. So does he own this rabbit?

                          It’s a reasonable assumption as he didn’t say “I fed Bill’s rabbit” or “I found a rabbit in the street and just happened to have some carrots.”


                          There really is is nothing odd about sitting on a foot high step. I have one in the garden that’s about the same and I occasionally sit on it to smoke my pipe and I’m 6 ft 2.

                          So am I, but the height of the step is not the main issue - rather it's the awkwardness of not having the door rest against his left thigh.
                          At the middle step, his thighs would be below the level of the bottom of the door, so the self-closing door would be continually bumping against his left arm.
                          Why do this when the left hand is needed to hold the boot or wield the knife?
                          He should have sat on the top step and used his thigh to keep the door in place, but he didn't (or so he says).
                          Was JR trying too hard to prove that he hadn't seen the body? If yes, why? Did he kill Chapman?

                          Or did he just push the door back to a position where it stayed in place. Then when he left all he had to do was to touch it past a certain position where it swung closed behind him?


                          But in the earlier post you said that someone did see him.

                          What did I then say to contradict that?

                          In the earlier post you stated as a fact that someone had seen him. That’s why Abby questioned it as I did. Then in the later post you said that someone might have seen him.


                          If someone had seen a man holding a knife standing on the backdoor step of a yard where a woman had been mutilated why didn’t they come forward? Especially as they would possibly have been able to tell the police “I’ve seen that man there before.”

                          Probably because no one did see him.

                          What incentive would they have to come forward? This person might prefer 'the quiet life'.
                          ​​​​​​​But what can we gain from your last statement? No one came forward so we have to assume the likeliest. That no one saw him.

                          Regards

                          Herlock




                          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                            Has anyone seen how Cadosch described the word 'no' he heard - as a shout or a scream or something else. At the inquest he simply said he heard a voice say no - not even whether it was a male or female voice.
                            Yep. My point exactly. It's certainly possible the voice he heard was Chapman. But it comes from 'the yard' of 29. Maybe. She would have been right by him at that moment. I can't believe he wouldn't have mentioned that. His evidence suggests he heard a voice from in the yard, not right beside the fence he is also right beside...

                            Comment


                            • Is anyone else experiencing problems accessing the witness statements on casebook? I can get to some but others are coming up as a 404 error. John Richardson is one of them so I only have the Sourcebook version which doesn’t go into the points about the knife as much as the other as far as I can recall?
                              Regards

                              Herlock




                              “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                              “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                              “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                              “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                              “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                                hi not
                                i agree the whole jr knife, rabbit story is rather odd. one thing i noticed. if the knife he had was unable to cut a piece of leather, would it have been able to cut up a carrot?
                                The other side of that coin is; if the knife had been able to cut the leather, what happened to the piece of leather removed?
                                Does Richardson mention borrowing a sharper knife at the market, because he knows that no bit of leather can be found, at #29?

                                Not, why do you think someone saw him there with the knife and who is it?
                                Because as explained in #324, JR doesn't need to mention the boot cutting exercise at all (the cellar check alone, would be adequate).
                                So why does he?

                                And why the discrepancy between this...

                                Have you ever seen strangers there? -Lots plenty of them.

                                At all hours? -Yes ; both men and women.

                                Have you asked what they were doing there? -Yes ; and I have turned them out.

                                The Coroner. -Do I understand you mean that they go there for an immoral purpose?

                                Witness. -Yes, sir ; I have caught them in the act.


                                And this...

                                Mrs. Richardson, recalled, stated in answer to the coroner, that she had seldom had anything stolen from the premises, notwithstanding the doors being left open or unlocked. She did miss ham once. She never had any suspicion that the yard was used at any time for immoral purposes.

                                Perhaps Richardson wasn't seen with the knife, but actually seen out the front, with the victim .... by Elizabeth Long.
                                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                                Comment

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